Purchase made - Froling S3 with dual 240 gal Storage

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Newfiestang

Member
Jan 5, 2017
131
NL
Well folks after a lot of reading and pondering over the last three years i finally made this large purchase. I will be starting this build in late spring or early summer and will try my best to post the steps along the way. I will be doing this build myself so im sure i will look here for guidance from time to time, hope you will join me, very excited to get this system installed for the next heating season.

I've posted the piping diagram below, if you see anything that dont look right or can be improved please dont hesitate to comment.

1613064494376.png
 
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hyfire

hyfire

Minister of Fire
Aug 3, 2013
718
Ont, Canada
What size expansion tank are you going with? Why not parallel fed tanks? No dirt mag seperator? No PRV on oil boiler?
 
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lotawood

Member
Dec 11, 2011
78
montana
Maybe bigger diameter pipe for the boiler to storage. 1 inch sounds small. What is the pipe diameter on the boiler? I wouldn't reduce the size coming out or in to the boiler. Froling would be near the top of my list for a replacement boiler.
 
hyfire

hyfire

Minister of Fire
Aug 3, 2013
718
Ont, Canada
Depends if its 1" copper or 1" pex or sch 40 pipe. You need to maintain 2-4 feet per second max velocity 2 preferred. I would say with 1" copper it probably be ok with 10-12 gpm. You probably need about 10 gpm with that boiler depending on the delta t your seeing.
 
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Newfiestang

Member
Jan 5, 2017
131
NL
hyfire said:
What size expansion tank are you going with? Why not parallel fed tanks? No dirt mag seperator? No PRV on oil boiler?
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There is a PRv right off the boiler where the gauge is.

Actually series fed tanks is whats recommended by Biothermic, the dealer in Canada for Froling. Apparently series fed tanks appear more like one single big tank. I dont have room for one larger tank as all this has to pass through several doors to get in my basement to my boiler room.

There is a Discal air seperator just off the Froling, it is my understanding this unit is also a dirt trap which is why i have a drain piped to it.
 
N

Newfiestang

Member
Jan 5, 2017
131
NL
lotawood said:
Maybe bigger diameter pipe for the boiler to storage. 1 inch sounds small. What is the pipe diameter on the boiler? I wouldn't reduce the size coming out or in to the boiler. Froling would be near the top of my list for a replacement boiler.
Click to expand...
The boiler piping is 1", its the recommended size for the S3.
 
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N

Newfiestang

Member
Jan 5, 2017
131
NL
hyfire said:
Depends if its 1" copper or 1" pex or sch 40 pipe. You need to maintain 2-4 feet per second max velocity 2 preferred. I would say with 1" copper it probably be ok with 10-12 gpm. You probably need about 10 gpm with that boiler depending on the delta t your seeing.
Click to expand...
Will be piped with 1" copper.
 
N

Newfiestang

Member
Jan 5, 2017
131
NL
hyfire said:
What size expansion tank are you going with? Why not parallel fed tanks? No dirt mag seperator? No PRV on oil boiler?
Click to expand...
Oh and the expansion tank will be a Flexcon 62 gal, also recommended by he Froling dealer based on the info i sent them and the water volume estimated in this system.
 
N

Newfiestang

Member
Jan 5, 2017
131
NL
Also not shown on the diagram, but the oil boiler which is currently installed will still have its own expansion tank and PRV. This is a retrofit as i will be removing a 35 year old New Yorker WF100 and installing this new boiler with storage. The WF100 can heat my 3600 sqft home no problem but we are a slave to it, filling every 2 to 3 hours on cooler days here in Newfoundland Canada.
 
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ABMax24

Minister of Fire
Sep 18, 2019
923
Grande Prairie, Alberta, Canada
Keep us posted. My dream (one day) is to build a house with hydronic heating, and heat primarily with wood through a boiler.
 
maple1

maple1

Minister of Fire
Sep 15, 2011
10,783
Nova Scotia
Newfiestang said:
Also not shown on the diagram, but the oil boiler which is currently installed will still have its own expansion tank and PRV. This is a retrofit as i will be removing a 35 year old New Yorker WF100 and installing this new boiler with storage. The WF100 can heat my 3600 sqft home no problem but we are a slave to it, filling every 2 to 3 hours on cooler days here in Newfoundland Canada.
Click to expand...
Your winter time quality of life will change immensely for the better. Not to be under estimated. Looking back at the 17 years I spent with my old boiler - holy ugly, Batman. I was literally drained by the time burn season ended.
 
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Newfiestang

Member
Jan 5, 2017
131
NL
maple1 said:
Your winter time quality of life will change immensely for the better. Not to be under estimated. Looking back at the 17 years I spent with my old boiler - holy ugly, Batman. I was literally drained by the time burn season ended.
Click to expand...
Yes Maple I completely understand what you mean. We are only in our late 40's but we are feeling the burden this old boiler puts on our day to day activities. I mean we have oil backup but our home is fairly large at 3600 sqft, cant image what are heating bill will be if we had to solely heat with oil. We currently burn about $2200 per year now in addition to the 6 to 7 cord of wood. I am really hoping the oil bill will be reduced drastically even if we consume the same amount of wood.

Right now even if I fill the wood boiler at say 11 PM, it only last until about 3 AM at best, then we are back over on oil until we relight in the morning. Hoping to at least get all night out of storage if fully charged before we turn in for the night.
 
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N

Newfiestang

Member
Jan 5, 2017
131
NL
hyfire said:
What about a safety system for boiler overheat on power failure I dont see it in your piping?
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Yes you are correct, its not there on the dwg but it is currently installed on my current system. Biothermic states that its not necessary as the boiler has the ability to complete shutdown during power failure but im not 100% sure at this point. I can easily add it in all the same, as i said the current system already has a dump zone valve (basement) so it will be a simple addition.

Also the Froling has a built in over heat connection that will be piped in from the cold water supply. If the boiler sense over heat it open a valve allowing city water to direct flow through this connection quickly cooling the boiler.

1613324001131.png
 
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Newfiestang

Member
Jan 5, 2017
131
NL
Actually just made a slight change to the piping for the DHW heater as I learned that only the DHW pump will energize will a call for DHW heating. In the original dwg that would mean that the DHW pump would have to pull water through the heating circulator, but by changing the DHW supply piping to the suction of the heating pump should fix that issue. All circulators will be controller by the Froling S3 programming, DHW given priority if i choose to program that way. Something i will have to play with.

You will also notice a 3 way diverter valve on the cold water return next to the oil boiler. This valve will switch between oil and wood heating depending on setpoints programmed in the Froling. If storage and wood boiler temp not satisifed then the return water will be switched to the oil boiler and the oil boiler will be aloud to fire. If wood boiler and storage temps above the desired setpoint then the oil boiler will be locked out by the Froling controls and removed from the water circuit by the 3 way diverter valve.

1613322617949.png
 
velvetfoot

velvetfoot

Minister of Fire
Dec 5, 2005
10,055
Sand Lake, NY
Very nice setup. That kind of looks like my Froling DHW tank, about 110 gallons or so. I haven't run my pellet boiler much at all, but use the DHW tank all the time. The Burnham cast iron boiler heats it up. It's well insulated. I figure the long run time does it good. The burn chamber of the oil boiler looks pretty good when I do the yearly cleaning-not much stuff from cleaning the passageways either.

Something to maybe think about is unintended flow and the use of check valves.

I'm sure the Froling will come with a bunch of instrumentation, but maybe something remote, maybe even cloud, to avoid trips downstairs.

I put my pellet boiler on solid concrete blocks, what they call 'termite blocks'. I hadn't really thought about how to get the boiler off the pallet and onto the blocks. You probably have a lot more to think about without a door to the outside from the basement.
 
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Newfiestang

Member
Jan 5, 2017
131
NL
velvetfoot said:
Very nice setup. That kind of looks like my Froling DHW tank, about 110 gallons or so. I haven't run my pellet boiler much at all, but use the DHW tank all the time. The Burnham cast iron boiler heats it up. It's well insulated. I figure the long run time does it good. The burn chamber of the oil boiler looks pretty good when I do the yearly cleaning-not much stuff from cleaning the passageways either.

Something to maybe think about is unintended flow and the use of check valves.

I'm sure the Froling will come with a bunch of instrumentation, but maybe something remote, maybe even cloud, to avoid trips downstairs.

I put my pellet boiler on solid concrete blocks, what they call 'termite blocks'. I hadn't really thought about how to get the boiler off the pallet and onto the blocks. You probably have a lot more to think about without a door to the outside from the basement.
Click to expand...
The DHW tank is what was recommended by Boithermic here in Canada, the Froling dealer. Its made by a Canadian company I think, Thermo2000. Its an indirect DHW heater thats very efficient with very fast recovery times.

TurboMax – Instantaneous indirect water heater by Thermo 2000 | Thermo2000

Yes I was wondering about some check valves but to be honest no matter what scenario I play out whether it be oil boiler doing the heating, Froling, Storage, etc., I cant really see where there is a need for one. There are scenarios wher the water will have two possible flow paths but water like electricity will take the path of lease resistance (head) so i think im good.

Of course the circulator pumps have built in checks. With that said, if you see any place where you think I would need a check please dont hesitate to comment, thats why I posted here, really looking for improvements or for someone to point out anything I missed. I am a instrumentation and controls tech by trade but im sure i dont know everything with hydronic heating even though ive been around this stuff for some time.

Yes there is an option to purchase the Froling Touch Display which can be connected to your home modem and you can then view parameters anywhere that has an internet connection. With that Display it allows you to use Frolings free app and portal, Froling Connect. The display is a $700 option so im on the fence with it right now.
 
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Newfiestang

Member
Jan 5, 2017
131
NL
hyfire said:
Yes low power with different flow based on setpoints or delta t . Example is taco vt 2218. Pump
Click to expand...
Ok gotcha. The Froling actually has the ability to make any conventional pump a variable speed pump. Maybe not exactly the same as the pumps you are referring to but still the ability is there now with the latest control version on the S3.
 
maple1

maple1

Minister of Fire
Sep 15, 2011
10,783
Nova Scotia
The Grundfos Alpha is also an ECM circ. Variable speed. I would highly recommend one for a zone circ that would see varying flow conditions depending how many zones are calling for heat. But an ordinary 3 speed circ works pretty good as a boiler circ.
 
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