Purchasing Pacific Energy Stoves Online - Warranty

[BrotherBart]

I have been concerned about the fact that PE says on their website that they discourage online sales of their stoves, yet I see the stoves advertised for sale online. I sent PE tech support an email asking about warranty status and here is the response:


"Hello,

We do not authorize any on line sales and therefore purchasing on line would void any warranty.

Regards"

 

[jqgs214]

Tom,

Do you have a response to that?? Are you personally backing all the warranty cliams on the stoves you sell?

 

[jtp10181]

How in the hell would they know if it was bought online unless you told them? Esp if the place mails you a normal invoice and all that fun stuff.

 

[BrotherBart]

How in the hell would they know if it was bought online unless you told them? Esp if the place mails you a normal invoice and all that fun stuff.

Oh I don't know. Maybe the fact that the dealer you put on the warranty registration is in Hereford, Texas and your address that you put on the form is in West Virginia.

Or the dealer is in Bellingham, Washington and you are in Flagstaff, Arizona.

I don't have a hound in the hunt but I do believe that the people on this Forum buying stoves need to know PE's position on this stuff. A lifetime warranty ain't squat if life ends when the freight truck backs up to your house. As for Tom, with his rep in the stove business I think he will do whatever it takes to take care of you. But the rest of them???

 

[Highbeam]

This is a poor move by PE me thinks. I understand them wanting to support local dealers but this really just penalizes the customer. I have seen similar strategies to prevent online retailers from squashing the mom-n-pops but the strategy is usually to not allow pricing information to be posted (Honda generators, Kubota tractors) or to only allow regional sales such as some stove manufacturers like Country I believe.

Does the warranty information spell this out in the fine print?

 

[karl]

Gee Bart I wonder who you are talking about. That email then sent you is total BS. I bought the stove from an authorized dealer. I am installing it according to their manual. I am going to register the warranty with them. I have a copy of their warranty. There is no way they can weasel out of making good on it. How do they know I didn't buy the stove while I was in texas? I do own land down there. Besides the price of the stove is well within the range of small claims court, so if they want to deny a warranty claim, they will have to either travel to the county where I reside or hire an attorney from here to represent them. Either way, it will cost them more than the cost of a stove to try and weasel out of it. I'm sure I will be making a warranty claim eventually, unless they come out with some super stove in 10 years. I'm only 36 and I don't plan on ever moving out my house.

Oh, and there is nothing in the warranty information about online purchases.

 

[BrotherBart]

Not talking about anybody specifically karl. You are just the latest online purchaser and a lot of people don't seem to be aware of PE's take on the issue. I came across it when I was thinking about buying a Summit from Justin last year and couldn't find him listed by PE as an authorized dealer. In fact I couldn't find his business listed in Hereford. A town I am fairly familiar with. Heck he is probably my uncle using a different name. He sells stoves and fireplaces there.

Burn long and prosper!

 

[karl]

Hmm I guess I'll have to put another name on the warranty card. Then in ten years nobody will remember. Nah I'm going to send it in like it is. Like I said their warranty says nothing about online sales and it is a brand new stove. I hope my stove didn't 'fall off' the back a truck somewhere. I would hate to send that serial number in only to have the police show up at the house to rip out a stolen stove.

 

[BrotherBart]

Bound to be fine. He has been selling stoves on eBay for several years now.

 

[elkimmeg]

Don't shoot the messenger BB raised a valid point. I have talked to the folks at PE Deb is customer relations.. We are talking about a manufacturer that produces about 5000 stoves a year
in comparison that is 1/10 ov f Vc 1/8 of Jotul and 1/6 ov quadr-afire and regency. They may make the best stoves in North America,m but distributorship is spotty The largest dealer in New England is listed as a dealer for Pe but never sold one and never knew they were listed as a dealer. till I informed them according o the internet Again there is nothing wrong with being a small player in a nitch market ,located on an island north of Vancouver.

Warranty issues are clearly spelled out in the owner's manual. if you mail order the stove you have no warranty and no dealer warranty support.. For those owners that can't believe this then time to read you owner's manual.. BB did not make this up it is in plain text for all to read. He is doing you a service pointing it out. I know shoot the messenger because they are teling you what you don't want to hear. I rather shoot the messenger and stick my head in the sand than read my own manual. It can't be true because tom did not tell me. He should not be mail ordering this product any where its a violation of his dealership agreement. o now you want to purchase from a person in violationship of his dealer agreement and shoot BB for reminding you?

 

[begreen]

Bart brings up a good point, though so far I'm not finding the exclusion clause Elk refers to. Karl, can you post it?

Point of clarification so the record is kept straight. The stoves are manufactured in Duncan, BC. That is just outside of Vancouver, BC, on the mainland, not on an island, though I can't see what that would have to do with it. PE stoves are not niche market stoves, they are geared toward the mainstream market and becoming more competitive yearly. Yes, they are a smaller company, but everyone has to start somewhere.

PE Warranty posted online:
Pacific Energy Industry Leading Limited Lifetime Warranty

WOOD PRODUCTS

Pacific Energy extends the following warranty coverage to the original registered purchaser of the product:
Lifetime Coverage

Limited lifetime coverage is extended to the following components (parts only) porcelain finish, glass, gold plating, firebox and baffle.
5 Year Comprehensive

Pacific Energy will replace any part found to be defective (parts and labor) for five years from the date of purchase. This coverage includes electrical components (blowers, speed controls and thermal switches).

CONDITIONS

For wood products – All installations must be installed according to all applicable local and national codes. It is the responsibility of the installer to ensure the unit is operating correctly at installation.

Any part that shows in our judgment evidence of defect shall be repaired, replaced or refunded at Pacific Energy’s option. The defective part may be required to be returned to Pacific Energy or an accredited agent, transportation prepaid.

Porcelain – is warranted for gloss retention. Certain colors may darken when heated and return to the original shade when cool.

Glass – is warranted against thermal breakage.

Plating – is warranted against tarnishing. Gold plating may attain a deeper color with use.

EXCLUSIONS

Lifetime limited coverage – Lifetime coverage is limited to the repair, replacement or refund of the indicated parts only. Labor charges are not covered under the lifetime warranty.

The following items are not included in the Lifetime Warranty: firebox rails and heat shields.
The following parts are not warranted: firebrick, gaskets and ceramic fiber blankets.

This warranty does not apply to any part that shows evidence of misuse, abuse, improper installation, accident or lack of maintenance.

Pacific Energy shall in no event be liable for any special, indirect or consequential damages of any nature whatsoever which are in excess of the original purchase price of the product.

Pacific Energy is not responsible for installation, operational or environmental conditions beyond our control.

(The company may, at its discretion, discharge all obligations by refunding the wholesale price of the defective part.)

 

[hilly]

Duncan is on Vancouver Island which is West of Vancouver. The southern tip of the island is south of the 49th parallel.

 

[begreen]

D'oh! Thanks Hilly. I was confusing Duncan with Delta. My error, but like I said, what does that matter? Vancouver Island is like bigger that some states, including Massachusetts or Vermont.

 

[karl]

BeGreen,

The exclusion clause is not in my manual or on the warranty information attached to the manual. My warranty is verbatim what you posted, except that it adds an additional paragraph in each section concerning gas products. But there is NOTHING in the whole manual or warranty card information that mentions anything about non dealer sales or non dealer installs for that matter. I DON'T SEE WHAT ELK IS REFERING TOO. Maybe he can post a scan of the page from his manual. It's not in mine

Guys, I'm telling you this sorta of stuff has been to court and settled time and time again. Starting well over 50 years ago. Automobile manufacturers tried to void warranties on cars if you didn't have routine maintainance done at a dealership or if you didn't use factory parts. The courts shot them down. More recently the same manufacturers tried to void warranties if you put modified parts on the car. This has be shot down in court as well, unless the manufacturer can prove the modified part caused the failure. If I buy a brand new product manufactured by a company and use according to their specifications they have to honor the warranty. I bet you if I have a warranty issue, PE will stand behind their product. All good companies do.

 

[R&D Guy]

Polaris Industries (Snowmobiles, 4 wheelers, Wave Runners) has the same issue with US residence buying in Canada. You can buy in Canada for about 25% less than the same sled in the US, but Polaris will not honor the warranty for US residence and will fine the Canadian dealer. That's big saving when you're taking 10 to 15k per toy. I know in my case the Canadian dealer said the warranty was with him. One of the sleds had a recall, so I called Polaris and gave them the serial to confirm and they explained that I must have bought my sled "Used" since it was sold under a different name with a Canadian address, and that it was originally sold in October of 2006. Right as I was about to explain that was impossible since I bought the sled a month earlier in September I realized what the dealer had done.

It's sounds about the same here, it's all about the risk one takes for a deal.

 

[karl]

R&Dguy;, I don't think its the same thing. I bought mine in the states.

 

[BrotherBart]

Update. I just looked and the Texas business is now listed in the phone book. It was last summer when I couldn't locate a listing for the business. Also, I sent the question to PE before karl told us about buying his stove. I just got a response back yesterday due to the fact that the PE bunch shuts down for vacation and they just got back to work.

I didn't post the response to open a can of worms here. I posted it because it is a possible issue that people shopping for a new stove need to be aware of and address just like everything else in the evaluation of stoves and dealers in the decision process. Just one of the many questions to ask before you plunk down your cash. No matter whose stove you are buying. Jotul states the same thing on their web site. It was a question that came up when I was shopping for a replacement stove.

 

[Cath]

This doesn't affect me, at least not now, but I was curious so I went looking for an online version of the warranty. I didn't do a word for word comparison but it looks like the Warranty language BeGreen posted is the same as what I saw. So the Warranty itself does not seem to disclaim coverage if the stove was sold "by mail" or over the internet.

However, Elk is getting at an important practical point that I have seen discussed in several threads. The person that buys the stove over the internet does run the risk of getting caught in a pointing contest between the selling Dealer and the Mfr. And you can't simply go to your local dealer and expect them to fix any problems --as an agent of the Mfr-- where you circumvented them to save a buck and they haven't made any money on the deal.

Further below are a couple of Pacific Energy web links. The first link explicitly states that their dealers are prohibited from selling over the internet. What's really interesting is that they also say "Many manufacturers will not register, authorize service, nor honor the warranty of a product that has been purchased outside of their trained dealer base, as installation and use cannot be determined." But they do not specifically say that this is their policy. Nevertheless, it's pretty strongly implied that you'll be left in limbo if you have a problem.

Having skimmed through Hearthnet member reviews of stoves, I have even seen this scenario played out with buyers that have bought from local dealers who have abandoned the buyer once a problem becomes too labor intensive.

So, is there a Warranty despite the a stove being sold over the internet? Probably. Is it enforceable? Maybe...if you have the time, energy and inclination. As a practical matter you risk getting caught in the middle of what really seems to be a contractual dispute between the Mfr and the dealer. Having said that, if the savings are great enough and/or you are buying from a reputable dealer you trust to make things right, it might be worth it. Especially if you are handy or mechanically inclined and you are more concerned about coverage for parts than labor.

It is worth emphasizing that Pacific Energy seems to concede, by implication, that while it is rare that some "on-line dealers ... offer technical support or service for the products they sell." Something to keep in mind regarding any Hearthnet Members that are Pacific Energy dealers and that sell over the internet.

LINKS

Pacific Energy On-line Sales Policy (broken link removed to http://www.pacificenergy.net/online_sales.php) EXCERPT Beware of on-line deals on fireplaces and wood stoves. The following are facts that on-line vendors of fireplaces and stoves don’t want you to know. … On-line dealers rarely offer technical support or service for the products they sell. They will try to deflect you to the manufacturer for technical support or warranty work. Many manufacturers will not register, authorize service, nor honor the warranty of a product that has been purchased outside of their trained dealer base, as installation and use cannot be determined. …No Pacific Energy dealer is authorized to sell you product via the web, or to ship you their product outside of their respective selling region. This ensures that you have on-going access to trained technical support.

Contact Us – Support (broken link removed to http://www.pacificenergy.net/techsupport.php) EXCERPT: Pacific Energy - Service/Technical Support Important: Step 1) Look through our frequently asked questions (FAQ) page. Many questions and procedures for resolving problems will be answered there. Step 2) Your Pacific Energy Retailer is the best choice for service or warranty questions. Step 3) If you have already contacted your Dealer and still would like to talk to us please use the form below. You can call us toll free at 1-888-223-0088

~Cath

 

[thechimneysweep]

PE's online sales policy is a position several hearth product companies have taken in recent years. This decision seems to
revolve around four points:

1) Price Poaching. Local dealers who have lost sales to online discounters might become a little less enthusiastic about
recommending the product line in question to their showroom shoppers, or even decide not to carry it at all.

2) Consumers who purchase from online retailers might suffer from poor dealer support, both before and after the sale, which
inevitably reflects badly on the reputation of the manufacturer and the product itself.

3) Internet purchasers who have product, installation, maintenance or service questions might find their online dealer either
unable or unwilling to respond, and redirect their questions to the manufacturer, who doesn't have the staff to handle a large
volume of consumer calls.

4) An internet purchaser with a warranty problem might turn to their local dealer to resolve the issue, putting the local
dealer in the position of spending the time, effort and money to troubleshoot the problem and acquire and install the
warranty part (often a no-profit situation), without having banked the profits from the original sale.

These points weren't widely anticipated during the early years of the WWW, and it was pretty much "open season" for internet sales. I believe we were the very first PE internet retailer, and in those days (1996) PE actively encouraged our online efforts. We offered PE products at suggested retail plus freight and our sales were (and still are) mostly international, or to areas in the US which have no local dealer representation, so poaching has never been an issue. We have gathered a list of licensed installers and Chimney Sweeps across the country, so are able to arrange installation and warranty help wherever needed. Most importantly, we took care of our internet customers just like our local customers, and even to this day, have never had a single unresolved customer problem.

Other companies who subsequently entered the internet marketplace were evidently less diligent, which has resulted in PE's
present internet sales policy. We're "Grandfathered in" at this point, but would anticipate hearing from PE should we ever stray into one of the four areas outlined above.

 

[stoveguy2esw]

which is why you should "get to know " your dealer, not everybody out there is a class act like tom is.

i realise this is harder to do in the internet market, hence the reason that PE is placing the disclaimer as they have. we at ESW are factory based warranty support rather than dealer based so it wouldnt effect us the same way , but that said , we do not encourage or discorage internet sales and if it is an authorised dealer who sells his stock online we do honor the warranty

 

[begreen]

If it weren't for your presence here Mike, I'd be more hesitant to buy an Englander from a big box store, than a PE from a good online dealer. This is not a reflection on quality, but it's been my experience that the big box stores often just don't give a damn and have little qualification for advice on repair of a stove. I prefer to work with a dealer that respects my abilities and intelligence and works with me if there is an issue, even if we're a thousand miles apart.

Living in a remote area, I've had to rely on internet sales more than many folks do. But just like any shopping experience, I say caveat emptor. I wouldn't buy a woodstove online unless the company had a really good track record like Tom's or Preston Trading Post back east.

But an Englander from a good local dealer would be a sweet deal for anyone I think.

 

[BrotherBart]

If it weren't for your presence here Mike, I'd be more hesitant to buy an Englander from a big box store, than a PE from a good online dealer. This is not a reflection on quality, but it's been my experience that the big box stores often just don't give a damn and have little qualification for advice on repair of a stove. I prefer to work with a dealer that respects my abilities and intelligence and works with me if there is an issue, even if we're a thousand miles apart.

Living in a remote area, I've had to rely on internet sales more than many folks do. But just like any shopping experience, I say caveat emptor. I wouldn't buy a woodstove online unless the company had a really good track record like Tom's or Preston Trading Post back east.

But an Englander from a good local dealer would be a sweet deal for anyone I think.

I bought the 30-NC knowing and not caring that a dealer would ever enter into any service problems since ESW says right up front that they take care of issues, not the seller of the stove. Takes a lot of guess work out of the process. There ain't a "good local dealer" that can ever match that. To this day Sutherland's has no idea that they they sent me a defective stove. No need for them to be involved because I just called ESW, like their manual said to, and they took care of it.

I like not having somebody in the middle that will get to me just as soon as he finishes with the guy that is looking at the megabucks stainless steel barbeque in the show room. Or that will try everything in the world to avoid having to be the go between because his profit ended when the stove went out the door.

Like Craig says "An ass for every seat.".

 

[begreen]

Englander is a pretty unique company. I hadn't read that in the manual. That's a heckuva policy. America could do with a lot more like it.

 

[elkimmeg]

America could do with a lot more like it.

Why would one be suprised? Englander is a fine example of built in America with American pride and x craftsman ship


They do not use any imported parts even, their cast iron casting are made in good old USA. American Maunfacturing done by American citizens

 

[webbie]

Good thing they have that cool Finn-Power (Finland) metal puncher to do all their hard work:
http://www.englanderstoves.com/metal.html
http://www.finn-power.com/

Speaking of American steel, there was one of those boneyard shows on tv last night and it showed the recycling of old batteries - done in PA - and the nickel and cadmium were sent from the recycler to Allegeny Ludlum - also in Pa.....where they use it to make stainless steel. Damn cool.

They made the stainless by dropping giant electrodes into the scrap metal and it strikes a giant arc (3000 degrees) and melts the stuff almost instantly. Since many of these industries are NOT labor intensive, they can prosper here as well as anywhere. In fact, Allegeny is considered one of the top manufacturers in the world (of specialty metals)....used by everyone from Heat-Fab to Boeing.