Quad 1200 Unable to Heat House

[DMKNLD]

Replacing the Fisher is a big problem. My wife grew up with that and always expected it to be 85 degrees in the house. Now the pellet stove tries to keep it at 74 and my wife is freezing. But the stove can't keep 74. Now she's really freezing and unhappy. Unhappy wife = unhappy life!

I hear ya on the issue of the wifey having less than 3 positive thoughts when the house is cold, while at the same time rolling her eyes at the time I spend on pellet stove related stuff.

You can always try what I do when she starts to razz me about my endless stove tinkering and pellet forum surfing, towards the goal of extracting every last btu of heat out of my stove.

"Well honey, if the house is too cold, I guess we'll have to do some alternative heat generating *activity*". With that, I'm free to stove tinker and forum surf to my heart's content. !

 

[1RADGUY]

I hear ya on the issue of the wifey having less than 3 positive thoughts when the house is cold, while at the same time rolling her eyes at the time I spend on pellet stove related stuff.

You can always try what I do when she starts to razz me about my endless stove tinkering and pellet forum surfing, towards the goal of extracting every last btu of heat out of my stove.

"Well honey, if the house is too cold, I guess we'll have to do some alternative heat generating *activity*". With that, I'm free to stove tinker and forum surf to my heart's content. !

You're too funny. But these forums offer so much more info than my dealer. I check in a couple times a day now! I did have my second insulation contractor come today. Both are in agreement about cellar insulation and attic insulation. Will have to see pricing then post back when work is done. Hopefully will solve a part/all of my problem!

 

[bbfarm]

We used our ceiling fan at first too but found the heat distributes better without it on

 

[DMKNLD]

But these forums offer so much more info than my dealer. I did have my second insulation contractor come today. Both are in agreement about cellar insulation and attic insulation.

Dealer support, or more often the lack of it as it were, is a common theme on this forum. I'm lucky that my local Quad dealer is great - he appreciates that I like doing my own maintenance and repairs, but he's there to help on parts and trouble shooting, usually after I've I effed it up beyond my limited MRA (mechanical reasoning ability), and he will certainly get my business when I buy another stove. Though that sounds more like the exception than the rule in the alternative fuels industry, there are some excellent stove techs, dealers and pellet producers who prowl this message board who renew my faith that there is still good knowledgeable customer service providership out there.

Our energy audit emphasized how much insulation and sealing drafts give the best 'bang for the buck' in energy conservation. He said start with the ceiling insulation, where most of the heat goes up and out of the house, including sealing any air gaps, preferably with spray foam vs batting. He described rolled batting insulation as little more than a giant air filter if you don't draft seal the cracks and crevices. So we're doing one major room renovation at a time in our 1870's farm house, as time and money allows for, starting with the ceilings and then doing the walls with spray foam insulation, and I've done the simple more low tech stuff like foam board insulating our basement knee walls and spray foaming our foundation cracks and air gaps.

Depending on how handy (and motivated), you can order spray foam kits like Tiger Foam and save some money, but for specialty stuff like that I'll support a local contractor with a good service reputation who does that type or work and know that it will be done right the first time. It sounds like you're on the right track getting some outside consultation from a couple different contractors. Definitely do the energy audit, which as you said often gets a tax credit or write-off from your local utility provider.

Take one project on at a time, use the tax incentives and energy credits as available, and appreciate that even simple insulation efforts can save 40 - 60% on your future heating costs, ie you gotta spend some money up front, but within a year or two you've more than paid yourself back in energy savings and satisfaction. Good luck - your 'mission' is this pellet forums mission

 

[1RADGUY]

Definitely going to insulate. Will probably use a combo of spray foam, blown in, and rolled insulation, depending on where it is. In cellar, they recommend to spray foam rock foundation walls, light spray foam on ceiling with rolled insulation between log joists. In attic, blown in insulation for floor. Taking it one project at a time, like you say. I am partly handy, but will leave this to some local, independent contractors. Still playing with the fans to get best air flow in our living room. Thanks for the encouraging words.

 

[DMKNLD]

Sounds like you're right on top of it, what's the saying "all over it, like a cheap suit". I find being borderline OCD about house projects definitely has a 'delicate unspoken balance' on the frustration / satisfaction level, with the little things like being able to walk around the house in just one or two layers vs the long johns and down coat, or the ability to keep the house comfy and cozy even when it's blowin' like stink out, or saving X amount of dollars on heating costs, are perhaps the most rewarding parts of home ownership.

But to appreciate getting to that point you have to experience the frozen pipes, the wearing 4 layers of clothes and still being cold, and yes, occasionally some dissent from the wifey, in order to keep it all in perspective. I think it was Emerson who wisely said, "It's not the destination, it's the journey........."

Good luck, and Godspeed to you and yours on your journey.

 

[DMKNLD]

Rad Guy, here's a forum link from earlier this fall on moving heat around throughout the house. The thread does a bit of 'meandering' as they are sometimes prone to do, but some good info in here: https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/moving-heat-convection-air-currents-in-your-house.118583/

 

[1RADGUY]

Rad Guy, here's a forum link from earlier this fall on moving heat around throughout the house. The thread does a bit of 'meandering' as they are sometimes prone to do, but some good info in here: https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/moving-heat-convection-air-currents-in-your-house.118583/

Thanks for the link. It does "meander" but provides good info. As I write, I'm testing a different ceiling fan pattern to see if it helps. Will test for a while then will shut off ceiling fans altogether and put a small fan on floor pointed into stove. Trial and error. I want my pellet stove to work well and my wife to be happy. My wife is ready to scrap it but I'm willing to try anything and everything to make it work. I will say again, I have received more info on this site over several days than my dealer has ever given me. Some dealers truly care, others are only about the sale.

 

[DMKNLD]

Thanks for the link. It does "meander" but provides good info. As I write, I'm testing a different ceiling fan pattern to see if it helps. Will test for a while then will shut off ceiling fans altogether and put a small fan on floor pointed into stove. Trial and error. I want my pellet stove to work well and my wife to be happy. My wife is ready to scrap it but I'm willing to try anything and everything to make it work. I will say again, I have received more info on this site over several days than my dealer has ever given me. Some dealers truly care, others are only about the sale.

"Knowledge is power", brother, and you're clearly on the upslope of the 'pellet power knowledge curve'. You're spot on about dealers and customer service. I honestly believe that dealers don't go into business with the intention to provide bad service, and I do believe that "everybody is doing their best, as they have it figured out". It's just that some people have it figured out better than others, which I guess goes in life as well as pellet stove sales and service.

You should encourage your dealer to join this forum, and perhaps they will get a better finger on the pulse of the issues pellet stove owners are posting about, and what we expect out of them. Empowering dealers and owners alike is in all of our best interests as consumers.

Empowering your significant other to get on the same page as you, now that might be a tougher task. Maybe this forum needs a 'spouses of OCD pellet stove owners' as a support system sub-group. Brainstorm together all the things you could do with the $2600 a year you're saving by not burning fuel oil, like taking a family vacation or a cruise to a warm place in January next year, and the added family time you can spend together if you're not having to fell / cut / split / haul / stack / clean - up / re-haul / re-stack / clean up again, etc that comes with burning firewood.

Your 'mission', at least to a degree, also needs to be her mission. Hopefully, the coldest part of winter is behind us, in the coldest of winters in quite awhile, and that the longer and warmer days will perhaps help her with the seasonal affective disorder that impacts all of us to varying degrees.

There are several very knowledgeable females on this forum, Lake Girl comes to mind, and maybe they can help with a welcome woman's perspective on what it took them to get on board with pellet technology, as well as the relationship 'give and take' that comes with taking on a home improvement project like you are doing. No doubt, the Mars vs Venus thing comes into play on how spouses cope differently with cold, communication, cooperation, et al. Good luck, bro, keep the faith !!

 

[1RADGUY]

Have been playing all day with the air circulation. We have 2 ceiling fans in our 15x26 living room. I have found that if I leave the ceiling fan closest to the stove off, and run the ceiling fan furthest from the stove in reverse, it warms the best. I did try stopping both ceiling fans and putting a small fan on the floor aiming it at the stove. It was probably 20 feet away. Room actually lost a degree very quickly. Finally, I put the small fan at the top of the steps blowing down the steps into the living room/kitchen. Room got very comfy very quickly! I may be on to something. So, for now, I'm running one ceiling fan in reverse and a small fan at the top of stairs blowing down. Feels better already! My wife has even noticed the cold draft when sitting by the stairs is gone. And I got my first estimate for insulation. Just waiting for the second estimate to come in. Things are looking up!

 

[St_Earl]

nice!
we don't hang out much in the stove/living room. so i keep it pretty hot and blow the fan directly in from the doorway.
but if you have a room that is cooler than you want that is further from your stove room, you may get the benefit of the floor fan there.
this is a little more gentle of an approach that is used by many folks here.

but you are finding what works best for your situation.
as someone said earlier, that's part of the fun and satisfaction when you discover what works and allows you to be comfortable and save money.

 

[DMKNLD]

Shweet, you're getting it dialed in, no doubt. Following this thread from your first understandably pessimistic post to the most recent upbeat post has been an odyssey to follow. It helps me appreciate that I'm not the only person who has struggled with a house or stove project, but ultimately finding a way to make it work brings allot of personal reward and satisfaction. Good on you for that. !

Blowing the cold air from the far end of the house, as St Earl suggested, has been the ticket for our farmhouse. Our bedroom is on the cold and windswept Northeast side, where our worst storms blow from, with poor air flow from the dining room where the pellet stove is, which is blowing the heat away from that end of the house. Just outside the bedroom door is a hallway leading to a cathedral staircase to the upstairs bedrooms that acts as a natural downdraft from the 2nd floor. So putting a small floor fan outside our bedroom door blowing towards the pellet stove room convects a warm air 'loop' both upstairs and into our bedroom and bathroom - a 2 fer for sure ! Putting a 2nd floor fan upstairs helping blow the cold air down the steps would no doubt help even more on the coldest days. Now if I can only get the wife to keep the fan on, who I believe only equates fans to cooling use in the summer vs heating use in the winter!

The ceiling is only 7' in our bedroom, so the ceiling fan blowing either up or down just seems to churn up the air in that room vs having the floor fan just outside the door on low speed gently blowing the cold heavier floor air out, and allowing the warmer air to flow in over it. Like you noticed as well, I can put my hand up and feel the warm air moving into that otherwise very cold end of the house. What a concept convection is !

What are you using for temperature measurement? I'm thinking about picking up one of the infrared laser sighted thermometers off of Amazon. There are several brands on sale for around $45, and it would be handy to use to measure wall temps as well as stove temps to better assess the heat output following several stove modifications I learned about on this forum to get better efficiency from my Quad Castile.

That will be a project for you for another day, if you want to follow B-mod and tjnamtiw's capable lead on how to tweak a Quad for maximum heat output and burn efficiency. One project at a time, though...... Keep us posted on how the insulation project is going - you should see a huge improvement in heat retention. Are you going for R-20 in the ceiling?

 

[1RADGUY]

Shweet, you're getting it dialed in, no doubt. Following this thread from your first understandably pessimistic post to the most recent upbeat post has been an odyssey to follow. It helps me appreciate that I'm not the only person who has struggled with a house or stove project, but ultimately finding a way to make it work brings allot of personal reward and satisfaction. Good on you for that. !

Blowing the cold air from the far end of the house, as St Earl suggested, has been the ticket for our farmhouse. Our bedroom is on the cold and windswept Northeast side, where our worst storms blow from, with poor air flow from the dining room where the pellet stove is, which is blowing the heat away from that end of the house. Just outside the bedroom door is a hallway leading to a cathedral staircase to the upstairs bedrooms that acts as a natural downdraft from the 2nd floor. So putting a small floor fan outside our bedroom door blowing towards the pellet stove room convects a warm air 'loop' both upstairs and into our bedroom and bathroom - a 2 fer for sure ! Putting a 2nd floor fan upstairs helping blow the cold air down the steps would no doubt help even more on the coldest days. Now if I can only get the wife to keep the fan on, who I believe only equates fans to cooling use in the summer vs heating use in the winter!

The ceiling is only 7' in our bedroom, so the ceiling fan blowing either up or down just seems to churn up the air in that room vs having the floor fan just outside the door on low speed gently blowing the cold heavier floor air out, and allowing the warmer air to flow in over it. Like you noticed as well, I can put my hand up and feel the warm air moving into that otherwise very cold end of the house. What a concept convection is !

What are you using for temperature measurement? I'm thinking about picking up one of the infrared laser sighted thermometers off of Amazon. There are several brands on sale for around $45, and it would be handy to use to measure wall temps as well as stove temps to better assess the heat output following several stove modifications I learned about on this forum to get better efficiency from my Quad Castile.

That will be a project for you for another day, if you want to follow B-mod and tjnamtiw's capable lead on how to tweak a Quad for maximum heat output and burn efficiency. One project at a time, though...... Keep us posted on how the insulation project is going - you should see a huge improvement in heat retention. Are you going for R-20 in the ceiling?

As far as the temp raising, I was using both our thermostats in the living room. One for pellet stove and one for furnace. Not quite up to "new school" laser temp gage yet! I'm an "old school" type guy. Although 45, I made myself sound 85! As far as insulation goes, in cellar, a 1/2 inch skim of foam on ceiling for drafts, with an R 19 on top of that in between log joists. All rock foundation walls would get a 2 inch layer of spray foam. In attic, blown-in insulation for an R 31.
While researching, I found that PA has a program to finance any energy saving improvements to your home. They have a list of approved contractors that I have to use, but they offer very low interest loans for this. We have the money to pay upfront, but I hate writing checks for 5K. If this state backed program will finance, we might as well take advantage. We are also getting a home energy audit done, which our electric company will reimburse. It's a win-win!

 

[DMKNLD]

Your place should be snug as a bug after your insulation upgrades. With heating costs what they are now, you should very quickly get a return on your investment while improving your home's equity value. And how do you put a price tag on your family being warm and happy when we have another frigid winter like this one has been?

Economists seem to be saying with long term interest rates poised to rise, now is the time to take advantage of incentives like 'green' energy star mortgages or the FHA power saver loans offer, vs paying with cash, that offers no tax advantage savings. So the state backed financing program sounds like the way to go.

We're planning to do a follow-up Energy Audit this spring after a round of insulation improvements to our house to see where we're at - always a work in progress !!

 

[1RADGUY]

Your place should be snug as a bug after your insulation upgrades. With heating costs what they are now, you should very quickly get a return on your investment while improving your home's equity value. And how do you put a price tag on your family being warm and happy when we have another frigid winter like this one has been?

Economists seem to be saying with long term interest rates poised to rise, now is the time to take advantage of incentives like 'green' energy star mortgages or the FHA power saver loans offer, vs paying with cash, that offers no tax advantage savings. So the state backed financing program sounds like the way to go.

We're planning to do a follow-up Energy Audit this spring after a round of insulation improvements to our house to see where we're at - always a work in progress !!

Hey, it's been a while since I updated this post, but here goes! Our electrician just finished replacing all old knob and tube wiring in our attic and second floor of house. This had to be done before any insulation contractor would touch the house. Next Monday, Energy Smart Home Improvement will be at the house for 3 days to insulate our cellar/basement, laundry room, and attic. Spray foam in the cellar/basement and laundry room, with blown in cellulose in the attic. To accomplish all this, we also rented a dumpster for 2 weeks and totally cleaned out our cellar and attic! Much back breaking work, but hopefully well worth it in the end! I know this sounds terrible, but I want temps near zero next Thursday, so i can see RESULTS from the insulation! I'll post back next week with results! Thanks everyone for all info, help, and encouraging words! This site is a wealth of great info!

 

[DMKNLD]

Thanks for the update, Rad Guy. Our 1870's farmhouse had the old 'thread spool' wiring as well before we bought it. Luckily, the prior owners were both electrical company employees, so they re-did all the scary wiring before they sold it to us.

Putting out $$$ for home improvements like you are doing is a tough pill to swallow, but considering what it costs to heat with propane, aka 'propain' or dino fuel, "you have chosen well, Grasshopper...." Hopefully the pellet shortage going on right now will encourage both consumers and retailers alike to plan more accordingly for next year's heating season. It's financially tough to have to plunk down a thousand bucks for pellets in the pre-season, but it means I'm not having to scramble to find them now, or having to burn $3.75 a gallon #2 fuel oil for heat in this brutal winter that won't end.

Long range forecasts for the spring apparently continues with the similar jet stream pattern that we've been in in the East this whole winter, so no doubt you will get the chance to test your insulation upgrades. As an aside, once your house is significantly tightened up with all your insulation and air gap updates, your pellet stove will definitely run better with an outside air kit. Many threads on this forum on the benefits of an OAK, as well as the issues of having too tight of a house in regards to the 'breathe-ability' and air movement throughout your house. One more thing to, 'add to the list'!

Good luck, and enjoy the warmth-to-come in your house

 

[1RADGUY]

Well, it has been about 2 weeks since all insulation work has been done. Although we have not had any 0 degree days since, we have had a lot of 20-30 degree days. What I have noticed is that the temp in the house now easily reaches 74 degress. And the stove actually turns off when it reaches that temp! Before, the stove ran ALL THE TIME trying to reach 74! Ansd some days it NEVER reached 74.The downstairs rooms stay evenly heated. Before insulation, depending on where you stood in our living room, there was a temp difference just a few feet away. Now, it is a uniform heat. We used to feel cold breezes flowing around. No more. With the basemant insulation, we were able to reduce the air infiltration to the basemant by 36%. The insulation people told us they are highly satisfied when any house achieves a 10% reduction! All in all, the wife and I are much happier! Now, if winter would just end! And finally, we did start the winter with a full tank of oil. Before we figured out the insulation issue, we had to run the furnace along with the pellet stove to keep the house warm. We used half a tank of oil in addition to 5 tons of pellets. Next years goal is 0 gallons of fuel oil used! With the added insulation, we should have no problems with that!

 

[Ram 1500 with an axe...]

Do you mind sharing how much the insulation cost to do, I may need to do the same one day..... Thanks.....

 

[1RADGUY]

Do you mind sharing how much the insulation cost to do, I may need to do the same one day..... Thanks.....

We spent $6300. Had sprayfoam done to stone foundation walls of basement, about 25 x 30 in size. Had sprayfoam done to added laundry room, about 10 x 15. Finally in attic, we had blown cellulose to 1100 sq ft. Went from 0 R value to roughly R30 in attic. They removed most of the floor boards to blow it in. They also did some smaller stuff, like adding insulation to doors. We had 3 quotes, from $5000 to $6300. The higher quote was using cellulose instead of blown fiberglass. I am pretty handy, but did not want to tackle the insulation, hence a company to do it. PA also has a program to provide low interest loans for energy efficient upgrades. You do have to use an approved contractor, and they have certain standards to meet. For us, it was well worth it. Sitting in living room, at 75 degrees. Wouldn't have been like this before insulation. Good Luck!

 

[DMKNLD]

Bravo Rad Guy, and thanks for the follow up! Proof that heat retention is at least as important in the home energy consumption equation as heat production is. Your insulation investment will be returned many times over.

 

[wenger7446]

Keep us updated!!

 

[Snowy Rivers]

We have a Quad 1000 and it will heat a 2400 footer easily.

Add another stove or two

We have the Quad (Use it little) and two Whitfields all on one floor.

Your issue is the lack of insulation and likely some cold air leaks too.