Quadrafire 5100i ACT INSERT smoke billows when door open?

[Jim Lesinski]

Hello! We recently bought a house which has a Quadrafire 5100i ACT Insert installed in it. I seem to be having a very difficult time getting a fire to start. When I open the door smoke billows out into the room.

• I have owned two previous houses with freestanding woodstoves, but never an insert.
• The house has a brick chimney lined with a 6 inch liner up two stories and out the roof. (it's maybe maybe 22-24 feet? I haven't measured yet)
  
• On the 5100i, I had the chimney cleaned professionally and it did have a birds nest/s in it. I watched them pull all that out. They inspected the brick, baffle and blanket. All seems good.
• After the chimney was cleaned I installed a steel mesh around the cap to prevent future residents. It's not small mesh and air goes right through.
  
• I know that wood needs to be dry, and mine is.
• My house is not air tight. I even opened a window while attempting to light the fire.
• The first attempt to start a fire was quite a chore. With both levers pushed all the way in, I could not shut the door and start the fire. It seems to be getting choked out. It would run with the door slightly open, but anything more than a crack would cause smoke to billow out.
• After leaving the door open for about 30 minutes, the kindling was going enough to put some more logs on it. Opening the door filled the room with enough smoke to set the detectors off.
• I let the wood burn all night with the primary cracked open. It seemed to do so fine.
• 2 days after the fire was out I cleaned everything up, took the trim off the insert, inspected around it, read the manufactures manuals and sucked every hole with my 6.5hp shop vac. I thought maybe something is clogging an air intake... I also took apart and re-assembled the stainless tubes, checked the baffle, completely removed the blanket to make sure it wasn't an issue.
• 2nd fire attempt - I used 6 fatwood fire starter logs and dry kindling. I ended up with the same results. Both air intake handles pushed in and I can't get the fire going. If the door is cracked it will go, but not like I would expect it to. Smoke billows out when I open the door.
• I took off the front grate, checked the air intakes to make sure they are sucking in by waving smoke in front of them. They seem to be, but not so much... I still cleaned everything up and made sure nothing was in the way.

So... does this fireplace have this issue? Is it just a pain to get going? I have never had this issue with any stove before! I don't think the smoking issue should ever happen like this.

What are my next steps? I am considering taking off the rear plate to see if that helps with air, and I will likely inspect the chimney again for any obstructions, but it seemed to burn fine once it was going and I had it cleaned already.

I see this thing has good reviews, but if this is normal behavior I will get rid of it.

Any help is appreciated.

Thanks,
Jim

 

[Slow1]

Well, two things come to my mind. First question is whether you have a good draft when you start - I have verified this on my stove by closing the air intakes, then with a lighter burning near the door edge, I open it slightly. If the flame is sucked into the stove I know there is a decent draft; if it blows out then I have a reverse draft. IF you are dealing with a reverse draft then we can talk about ways to get it flowing in the right direction (mostly about warming up that chimney/flue).

The second thing is your wood. I know, you feel your wood is dry, but how dry is dry and how are you sure? I thought I had dry wood my first year and into my second year with my stoves. I've since come to appreciate the difference REALLY dry wood makes. 3-4 years stacked with air flow makes a huge difference. If you have a moisture meter, do the whole "split then measure along the center of the freshly split face" test and see what you are averaging. You could also get some well dried (kiln dried) wood that they sell at big box stores for fireplaces and see what happens.

I'm assuming here that the chimney sweeps did their job and inspected the install itself (i.e. everything is actually hooked up the way it is supposed to be).

 

[Hogwildz]

Reverse draft is my call. Those fatwoods smoke a lot too, with a reverse draft, it will literally push the smoke backwards through the air intake.
Does this issue happen if you are reloading the insert while still warm with coals?

What side are the holes in the mesh you put on the cap?
Anything smaller than 1/2" openings will clog faster and prevent draft. Especially if your burning habits or wood are not up to par yet.

 

[Sprinter]

It seems to be getting choked out. It would run with the door slightly open, but anything more than a crack would cause smoke to billow out.

Welcome to the forum Jim.

The above statement would seem to point to a chimney draft issue rather than an intake problem. Or the wood is not as dry as you believe it to be. Do you get any smoke through the intake with the door closed?

 

[Sons924]

Sounds like you are opening the door to fast and sucking the smoke into the room. After the fire is going an you want to add another log hold door cracked so the draft equalizes.

 

[Jim Lesinski]

The mesh is in fact 1/2 inch.
I started the fire twice, using paper the first time and fatwood the second.
The wood is dry. I actually took some from my brother in law who has a freestanding and has no issues burning it to test that theory, and I just had some dropped off today for myself.
I am definitely not opening the door too fast. I tried cracking it open really slowly and slowly opening it with both intakes wide open. I also tried with them both pulled out for grins. It didn't matter.
After the first fire, I was able to open the door when there was just coals which were producing no smoke but still warm.

I am new to this stove, but my family had a freestanding stove since I was a kid. We burned around 15 cords a year and I have been cutting, splitting and stacking the stuff since I was 12 (I am 36 now.) I've just never seen a stove smoke like this.

So how do I identify and solve reverse draft? I would think the smoke would get sucked up the chimney when I opened the door, which is what I have always experienced in the past.

 

[begreen]

Is this stove in the basement?

 

[Jim Lesinski]

The stove is not in the basement. It is on the ground floor of a two story home.

 

[Sons924]

Check the baffle

 

[Jim Lesinski]

The baffle is resting directly on the secondary burn tubes, with the front of the baffle lined up with the front tube. I have tried adjusting the blanket, and tried burning without the blanket at all (just the baffle).

 

[begreen]

Once the stove is going, is the smoke spillage ok on a reload?

 

[Jim Lesinski]

If there are flames, then smoke comes out on a reload. It didn't smoke once it died down to a bed of red coals.

I just lit up one of those fatwoods again in the stove and taped it with my phone. With one fatwood going it smokes out the door when I open it. I know they smoke a lot but I think this gives you the idea.

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[Sprinter]

Is that liner attached properly?

 

[Jim Lesinski]

I believe the liner is based on what I see in the manual, but I am no expert and I didn't install it.

 

[begreen]

There is insufficient draft for some reason. Some possibles:

• poor fit of liner into the flue collar. Sealing with furnace cement may help.
• torn liner
• collapsed or restricted liner (check where it goes through the damper. Did they remove the damper or flatten the liner?)
• badly located chimney (on downwind, low side of house)
• negative pressure in house. This can be caused by an open window upstairs or an open attic, whole house ventilation vent upstairs. Or by competing exhaust systems like a serious range exhaust.

 

[Jim Lesinski]

I am thinking poor fit of liner is a contributor, when the stove was cold I noticed some smoke coming out of the flue collar. It went away, perhaps because it warmed up an sealed. I will check that and get some furnace cement.

I can check other items tomorrow. I don't think it is negative pressure. I just had new windows installed and new siding with 1/2 inch foam insulation in addition to the 2x4 insulated walls. Everything is closed up and I actually shut down the hot water tank and boiler while testing. No bath fans were running.

It is a brick chimney with a liner added to it. If it is poorly located what are my options? I am thinking this may be the root cause as the I talked to original installer of the boiler and they added a fan to the boiler exhaust, which runs up a second line in a separate section of the same brick chimney because they were having issues with getting the exhaust to work properly.

Here is a photo of the house and property layout. I drew an arrow at the chimney location and also at a huge pine tree which towers above the house. The elevation is higher on the left side of the photo which would be west and lower on the right side, which is of course to the east.

(broken image removed)


It is a brick chimney with a liner. If it is poorly located, can I increase height to solve the issue? Does the tree need to be taken down?

 

[Sons924]

With a 2 story chimney I think you should insulate the liner. Then try adding more kindling on top of the fat wood to start a stronger draft. You still opened the door pretty quick in the video. When the door is opened quickly it sucks the smoke into the room. Just barely crack the door until the pressure equalizes

 

[Sprinter]

Here's an explanation of the 10-3-2 rule. If this rule is followed in your case, it's probably not a factor. I'd look closely at the liner installation especially at the collar.

http://www.unlimited-air.com/firepl...y-is-the-2-foot-by-10-foot-rule-so-confusing/

 

[weatherguy]

Can you takes some up close pics of the flue collar and an outside pic or two of the flue?

 

[begreen]

I am thinking poor fit of liner is a contributor, when the stove was cold I noticed some smoke coming out of the flue collar. It went away, perhaps because it warmed up an sealed. I will check that and get some furnace cement.

I can check other items tomorrow. I don't think it is negative pressure. I just had new windows installed and new siding with 1/2 inch foam insulation in addition to the 2x4 insulated walls. Everything is closed up and I actually shut down the hot water tank and boiler while testing. No bath fans were running.

Try opening a nearby window a crack before opening the stove door. It could be the stove needs an OAK due to the tightening up of the house.

 

[Jim Lesinski]

I had the window open while I video taped. I thought maybe an outside air kit if it would provide more air intake, but I am not sure that will help if the chimney isn't drafting. I will post some pics later today of the chimney setup, flu and roof line.

 

[mellow]

Check to see if that liner is insulated or not it doesn't look like it in the video, it looks to be an interior chimney which usually doesn't have to be insulated unless it is for code.

I had the same issues with mine and had to insulate it but I have an exterior chimney. Once I insulated mine I have no more issues with smoke coming out on reloads.

 

[Hogwildz]

Were the baffles boards(s) removed prior to sweeping the stack?
If not, you may have a bunch of crud from the cleaning laying on top of the baffle boards partially or more blocking the stove outlet.

Ad no, it should not be leaking smoke around the collar.
Check that the liner & adapter are actually down to the actual top of the stove, and not just to the upper casing that the "L" brackets are mounted to.

 

[Jags]

I am going to through out something kind of silly - but I gotz to ask. Are you sure your primary air control is properly positioned for wide open?
Was it windy when you were trying the startup?
Needing an external fan on your oil burner to obtain proper draft is telling.

 

[Sons924]

I watched the video again and again. It's black smoke from fat wood. Get some pallet wood. Or even take a split and split into the smallest splits possible. Get yourself a newspaper. Crumble up newspaper then put in 5 pieces of fat wood on the newspaper. Then put in the small splits onto the fatwood. Put the air control wide open. Open the door and light the newspaper. Don't shut the door at all. Leave it just barely cracked. This will create a draft from the house into the starter fire. All that smoke will get sucked up the chimney and start the draft.
Good luck