Questions about putting an insert/stove into existing fireplace.

[hstraf]

Hello,

This website has been great. In fact, last October, I used the main part of the site to discover how to build and manage a fire when we moved into a place with a wood stove. (My first time using wood as the only source of heat!) This website was a lifesaver! I have now just recently spent almost a whole day reading every "question and answer" page, and then many posts in the forums to try and get information about a question I have. (Hence this post.)

We just moved into a new apartment, which also uses wood heat. However, the new apartment has only a single large open fireplace (see attached photo). I know an open fireplace is a really inefficient way to heat the apartment, which is why I'm thinking that maybe it's a good idea to somehow "convert" it into either an insert or a wood stove.

(Our landlord has given full permission to do whatever we want, as long as we don't physically modify the existing fireplace, and we take whatever we install with us when we leave.)

Question 1 - What is the better solution?

- a wood stove?
- an insert?


1) If we get an insert and the whole face of the fireplace is "sealed" by the big metal flashing, how does the heat get out? Only through the window? Is a air blower critical for an insert?

2) If we get a wood stove that sites inside the old fireplace, wouldn't all the heat just disappear up the chimney flu, just like an open fire? Or should we maybe put a fan or something behind the stove to blow the heat out into the room? Or maybe I should put a stove on the floor in front of the old fireplace? Also, note that in the photo you see the empty space under the fireplace. I'm paranoid a 500lb stove would crash through!

In my head, I see a wood stove as basically the same as an insert, except the insert has the big metal flashing/seal in the front to make it prettier, whereas the stove just sits there on legs in the open hearth. Is this about right?

We're not really too concerned with asthetics. (ie: We prefer it to be more efficient then pretty.)

Sorry. As you can see I'm very confused.


Question 2 - How "big" of a stove or insert to buy?

Ie: What "BTU" power and also physical size should I get?

I've attached a picture of the fireplace (attached pic "1.jpg", "2.jpg", "3.jpg"), so you can see what we have. The hearth is 39" wide by 23" inches tall at the opening and is about 20” deep. (It's about 27" deep from the very rear of hearth to very edge of the brick in the front.)

The room in which the fireplace is located is the main family room where we spend all our time. It is 309sq ft (with 8.5ft ceiling) and our whole apartment is 650 sq ft on each floor (2 floors total).

We live in a little village in the top part of Corsica, France (the little island in the Mediterranean right below France). It only gets down to about 40 to 50 degrees for maybe 4 or 5 months or so. It's often very windy, however, and our apartment is definitely not very airtight. (Every window/door leaks.) The walls are about 1.5 feet thick (made of brick with stucco on the outside and plaster on the inside) with no insulation. The doors/windows are double-panned glass. Yippee.


Question 3 - Installation?

The chimney flue is approximately 9" x 9" (and totally covered in black creosote) that goes up 2 floors straight out the roof. (See attached pic "4.jpg" for a shot looking straight up the flue.) My understanding is that for either a stove or an insert, we will need a flexible stainless steel chimney liner that connects from the back of the insert/stove and then goes at least 5 or 6 feet up the chimney flue.

I'm thinking about also adding an additional section of rigid stainless steel single-walled liner to the top of the flexible portion, as I've heard it will be better to run the tube as high as possible. Do you think this is a good idea? There's no access to the roof, so I have to do everything from the fireplace opening. (And cleaning will always need to be from the bottom.)

It's worth noting that there does not appear to be a damper or smoke shelf when I looked up the flue with a flashlight. The flue just goes in a straight line all the way to the top, with no obstructions or anything. Incidently, the flue is in the middle wall of the apartment, and not along an outside wall.

Also, how does the piping stay up the flue? Does the weight of the liner just rest on the insert/stove? Or is there some way to attach the liner to the chimney flue?

And.. What is this "T" I have heard about? Would installation of something like this benefit me? Seems the benefit is for cleaning and viewing, but I believe I would need to disassemble the whole liner every year for cleaning since it won't go right to the top of the stack, right? So a "T" would not be beneficial?

If it's not too hard, I'll do the installation myself. I am a good handyman, and have a few cousins who do home reno work for a living. I just need to understand how all the pieces fit together first.

Any suggestions, concerns, or problems with this install?

Thanks!

 

[hstraf]

BTW - I'm originally from Vancouver, BC, Canada.. (we just moved to Corsica one year ago). All my life I've used electric heat, so switching to wood was quite a shock!

I love it, though. Even when we move back to Vancouver I think I'll continue to use wood fuel.

 

[hardwood715]

Wow that chimney looks like it is in desperate need of cleaning, I'd be afraid to use it with anything till that thing is cleaned!

 

[hstraf]

Wow that chimney looks like it is in desperate need of cleaning, I'd be afraid to use it with anything till that thing is cleaned!

Ya, I'm dreading the conversation with our landlord, as I kind of think he should be responsible for getting it cleaned. We just moved into the apartment 3 weeks ago and have never lit a fire... My French is also very horrible, so the conversation is likely to go badly.

I'll probably just ask one of my cousins for a recommendation for a cleaner and if it's not too much I'll hire someone. (I'd try and do it myself, but I've never done it before and also I think it's abnormally dirty so I'd rather have a pro do it, as I don't want to mess around with my family's safety. After it's cleaned the first time by a pro, then I'll tackle the regular upkeep and yearly cleanings myself.)

 

[wg_bent]

Question 1 - What is the better solution?

There is no universal right or wrong answer, only what you like the looks of, and what would work best for your installation.

Looking at that, the face plate of an insert might be tough to get just right and seal. Also, the faceplate is mostly to improve the looks of the installation.

A stove like the Lopi Answer comes in an insert and a freestanding, and they are virtually the same stove.

The heat gets out of an insert through passage ways between the inner stove wall and a shroud that surrounds the stove.

Your installation would require a block off plate and a chimney liner. The liner goes through the block off plate and the block off plate prevents the heat from going up the chimney. In my parents home the block off plate was made out of two peices of sheet steel with fiberglass between ( I hit the post limit at this point....Grrr)

Question 2 on size:

To heat approximately 1200 sqft you should be looking at a stove with a firebox at around 1.5 - 2.0 cuft. It doesn't get very cold there so that should be enough, but depending on layout though you may find that your heating up the 650 a bit more than you want....well, maybe that's a good thing.


In that thing you should run a liner all the way to the top in order to get the best draft, and be safest. The great thing about a liner is that it is one continuous peice.

A T at the bottom is where the horizontal output of a stove connects to the vertical pipe. The chimney can be cleaned from there instead of removing the stove, but I left my insert right where is was to clean my chimney this year, and may others do the same. The baffle and burn tubes need to be removed or pushed aside and a brush is pushed up and down inside the liner or chimney. It sounds worse than it is, and in total the job really isn't all that bad.

I hope I answered all your questions...if not ask again...I'll keep digging in for you if you like.

 

[hstraf]

Thanks!

I'm leaning towards getting a "stove" instead of an insert, because then it's more portable and we can move it to a different apartment or set it up elsewhere aas a "standalone" unit if needed. An insert wouldn't be good in that situation, I think.

Would you recommend shoving the unit back as far into the open hearth as possible? Or would you recommend moving it as far forward as possible? Or maybe even sitting on the floor in front of the hearth? My understanding is that the heating is from radiant/convection, so it seems that the more of the stove that is "in the room".. the better? If it doesn't matter, then I'd rather have it stuffed as far back as possible because it'll make my wife happier.

Also, how does the piping stay up the flu? Does the weight of the liner just rest on the insert/stove? Or is there some way to attach the liner to the chimney flu? If I run a liner right to the top of the stack, that's a lot of pipe and weight...

I don't have access to the roof, so I'd have to put it together in pieces from the bottom.

I still don't understand how the "T" works. Does anyone have any pictures of a "T" that is attached to a stove? I'm a visual guy, so maybe that will clarify it. Ultimately, if I have the stove stuck in the middle of the fireplace hearth, I have to move it to access the liner for cleaning.. so having a "T" might not help?

 

[elkimmeg]

1) If we get an insert and the whole face of the fireplace is “sealed” by the big metal flashing, how does the heat get out? Only through the window? Is a air blower critical for an insert?

Most inserts have a convection cover that circulates air around the stove then back out many are blower asisted

2) If we get a wood stove that sites inside the old fireplace, wouldn’t all the heat just disappear up the chimney flu, just like an open fire? Or should we maybe put a fan or something behind the stove to blow the heat out into the room? Or maybe I should put a stove on the floor in front of the old fireplace? Also, note that in the photo you see the empty space under the fireplace. I’m paranoid a 500lb stove would crash through!

You have 650 sqft of area and moderate climate a Vermont castings Intrepid size stove would take care of your heating needs
and weighing inat 225 lbs

Question 1 - What is the better solution?

- a wood stove?
- an insert?

Most of you chimney appears to be interior not a bad idea to let it store some heat If using a free standing wood stove then pull it our as far as possible either an insert or free standing stove will work and accomplish the heating task
size wise I mentioned s that aove answering another question.



Question 3 - Installation?

I am not familiar with the governing codes in France what you are contemplating is called a direct connect a liner and block off plate into the first flue. My main concern would be to get that chimney cleaned the condition now it is not safe to use either the fire place or any stove or insert.. Codes or regulations wise you should check with the governing authority

 

[Todd]

Kind of a strange looking fireplace. Can that elevated fire shelf support the weight of an insert or stove? Might have to put something underneath for support. Also, the mantel clearance could be an issue.

 

[wg_bent]

Just thought I'd give you a little perspective on size (and I agree with Elk on stoves) My Osburn 1800 is loaffing along right now. A hot bed of coals, blower running on lowest setting, and been running so low today, I think I put around 10 peices of pine in today one at a time. House is 2200 sqft colonial sort of thing with stove in one end of the house. Whole lower level of the house is about 80. Windows were open earlier. Outside temp is 43.

I could easily drop a bunch more wood in there and get that stove cranking a lot harder. So you'll be surprised how much better a stove would heat your place.

 

[wg_bent]

In looking at the pictures again, I have to agree that if you could put in a block off panel in front of that fireplace and have a nice cast iron stove like a Vermont castings or a Morso in front of it you'd have a nice heater. That fireplace is quite odd looking. I'm surprised it doesn't smoke like mad. What's the little vent at the top for?

You said you didn't have access to the roof. That would be a problem for installation of a liner. They have a top cap that keeps rain out that has a protective block off plate at the top. This install could get interesting eh guys?

 

[BrotherBart]

In looking at the pictures again, I have to agree that if you could put in a block off panel in front of that fireplace and have a nice cast iron stove like a Vermont castings or a Morso in front of it you'd have a nice heater. That fireplace is quite odd looking. I'm surprised it doesn't smoke like mad. What's the little vent at the top for?

You said you didn't have access to the roof. That would be a problem for installation of a liner. They have a top cap that keeps rain out that has a protective block off plate at the top. This install could get interesting eh guys?

Haven't been to Corsica in twenty years but would be willing to go and consult on this one.

 

[hstraf]

In looking at the pictures again, I have to agree that if you could put in a block off panel in front of that fireplace and have a nice cast iron stove like a Vermont castings or a Morso in front of it you'd have a nice heater.

I've been thinking about that, too. We have a portable air-conditioner unit (gets really hot here in the summer) and I could pump the hot air up the liner in the summer (instead of out a window, etc). In the winter, I could roll away the air-conditioner and roll in the wood stove, connect the liner.. and I'd be all set.

Plus, then we'd have the wood stove which we could bring to any different apartment or a house if we buy/build one, etc...

That fireplace is quite odd looking. I'm surprised it doesn't smoke like mad. What's the little vent at the top for?

I don't dare use the fireplace as it is, so I haven't a clue if it smokes. The previous tenant said it worked really well...

I don't have a clue what that little grill at the top if for. In fact, I was going to make another post about that later. There are a few other little holes, too. One little steel door right to the left of the open hearth (right behind where the axe is located, if you look closely). And there's another little screen opening maybe 3"x3" on the outside of the left pillar right down by the floor. (Can't see it in the picture, but it's covered now by the furniture holding up our TV there on the left side.)

Very strange... some kind of ventilation I suspect.

 

[hstraf]

Haven't been to Corsica in twenty years but would be willing to go and consult on this one.

I wish I could bring you over!

It would be great to have someone smart in this area just figure out what I need, go with me to the store, and tell me to get "this this that... and you're all set".

 

[BrotherBart]

Haven't been to Corsica in twenty years but would be willing to go and consult on this one.

I wish I could bring you over!

It would be great to have someone smart in this area just figure out what I need, go with me to the store, and tell me to get "this this that... and you're all set".

With airport security these days I could just see me.

"Yes, I packed them myself. Yes, they are a set of flexible rods and a chimney brush. Yes, I often travel to far away places to sweep chimenys. Is there a problem?"

The last time I was there I went ballistic on an airport security officer. I was traveling with another exec of a Fortune 5, not 500, company and he was from Columbia. They strip searched him because of his Colombian passport and I was screaming at people. Embarrased the hell out of him. Not getting strip searched, he was used to it, but me in the face of the cops.