Really Cold upstairs in my old house......

[johnny1720]

Ok here is a short description of my house and what I have done in the last 3 years.

-2600 Square foot Farm House, two stories.

-Built in 1862 or so

-Plank Walls, (meaning vertical planks between 18 and 36 inches wide running from the ground to the roof) when I moved in the entire house was plaster and lathe nailed directly to these planks. Meaning that there was no room for insulation.

-I started tearing out the plaster and lathe room by room the day I moved in. When I do this I fill all cracks with expandable foam stud up the walls with 2x4's or 2x6's, run the electric and then insulate with R13 or R19. Then I drywall over this. I use 2X6's in the one section of the house that really gets the wind. I use 2x4's in the rest of the house to conserve on space. I have all but one room on the first floor done and I am 1/2 done with the second floor.

-Attic Insulation has R11 and nothing else.

-I have 24 Windows, I have replaced 14 of them with LOW E/Argon Filled/top of the line replacement windows. (or so I am told). Most of these were replaced on the 1st floor.

-The last 3 winters I have had two pellet stoves, I was burning 4-5 bags per day last winter and I used about 8 tons last winter. When I ran out of pellets I used about 1000 gallons of oil @ 2.50 per gallon. It was the longest coldest winter in a long time here in the NE.

-When I redid my kitchen this summer I removed one pellet stove, along with one load bearing wall and I insulated the hell out of the kitchen with R19 and about 20 cans of spray foam. Now with the kitchen insulated and with its new windows I am pretty comfortable with 1 pellet stove running when I am home and the oil furnace running all day and night long at 68 when i am home and awake and 64 when I am sleeping or away. I had to remove the stove because I had no place for it to go except to my man cave

-I installed lots of floor vents so that it would circulate the heat a little better in my house. The downstairs is really comfortable however the upstairs is always 15 degrees colder than the downstairs.

-My pellet stove insert is located on the first floor right below the stairs to the 2nd floor.

-I have tried everything to make the upstairs warm. Last year when I had two stoves I could get the house up to 85 or 90 and it would never get up over 65 upstairs. I thought heat was supposed to rise?

I know this is hard to understand but does anyone have any ideas of what I can do to reduce my heating bills any more?

We are only trying to keep the house 71-72 in the pellet stove room and above 65 in the rest of the house including upstairs.


Johnny

 

[jtakeman]

Have you done any insulating in the atic space?

Thats a lot of house there. Bet that one stove is cranked out to the max.

If you really want to save money have an enegy audit done. The will find your leaks. Or see if you can rent or borrow a IR camera.

You could always move down stairs and block off the upstairs. Until you figure out were you are loosing the heat. Might also look into a more effient stove. Now's the time with the tax rebate.

Just suggestions.
Hope you get it all figure out and can stay warm. I was cold last year until I made the stove move and added more insulation.
jay

 

[Bkins]

Congrats on making a bunch of headway on your home. It sounds to me that the best place you could improve is in the attic insulation. R-11 in not very much for a attic. My guess is if you did a energy audit you would find that most of your heat is going out through the attic. It might help to run a electric heater in the rooms your in upstairs until you can get more insulation into the attic. I know electricy is expensive.

Bkins

 

[www_godzilla]

I have a house that is 110 years old. It is also built very similar. I actually put a few floor vents connecting my 1st and 2nd floors. It doesn't do much good to be honest with you. If I decided to blow a fan up the vent that would help some. See...all you and myself are doing is heating up the walls and ceiling. Just like cement those walls will suck it up. Another thought is this... You could rezone your pipes in your furnace. See...when your thermostat kicks in it heats the entire house. By rezoning,you heat only where the thermostats are. We rezoned my friends house last year. You start by fitting the pipes to branch out for the upstairs and the ground level. Each floor has a thermostat. You cut your heating a lot. It's very easy. You just need to see where the pipes go upstairs and recirculate back to the furnace. You can have a plumber do it for you. He will know what I am talking about.

 

[imacman]

Johnny, as has been said in this forum MANY times, heat from pellet (or any type of space heater) does NOT move well between floors, contrary to what you might think. Some people get it to work some, others don't....it all depends on the individual house set-up.

Like Bkins said, you need way more insulation in the attic if you want a shot at keeping the upstairs warmer....any heat that IS making it up there is going out the attic.

 

[becasunshine]

Johnny, Husband and I are sitting here discussing your post.

We aren't HVAC or insulation experts, far from it. These things stood out, though:

R11 in the attic. We are in the southern half of the Mid-Atlantic region and we have R13 in the attic- which we plan to upgrade. R11 in the attic sounds like it's a little light for the north east/New England area. I don't know how expensive that would be to upgrade. We've been sorta kinda procrastinating on ours because we've been working on other projects and because we have to pull up plank flooring in part of our attic to upgrade/add insulation. Talk about pulling nails...

Original windows upstairs probably aren't helping you.

What kind of entrance do you have to your attic? We have pull down steps and my husband's father made an insulated box thingy to go over the attic door opening. It sits in the attic over the opening and it's hinged on one end. We've seen attic door "tents" made by Corning in the Big Box home improvement stores- same idea.

We have a one story brick bungalow that we've been renovating. Last winter this time we had the kitchen and laundry room torn up in a full scale renovation. All of the cabinets were off the walls, parts of the walls were torn out all the way to the brick exterior wall, the ceiling was open to the attic in places and the floor was pulled to the subfloor in places. We had the doors closed but it was still cold and drafty at that end of our small house.

The pellet stove lives at the other end of the house, and the temperature gradient was heinous. Having the kitchen doors blocked off (two doors) didn't help with the natural convection and the temperature gradient from one end of the house to the other made it worse. The cold air was like a wall. Using the ceiling fans to try to pull the heat into other rooms just made us colder.

I posted on a pellet stove forum asking for help with moving air around. The guys on that forum (I don't think it was this forum, can't remember though) really helped me understand natural convection and how to manipulate it. They helped me understand that the ceiling fans were creating a cold air "wash" over the doorways, thus effectively blocking the warm air from entering the room. They were the ones who explained how to use a box fan to facilitate convection. We now use a box fan sitting on the floor, pointing at the pellet stove. The cold air is pulled into that room and toward the stove at floor level, the warm air is pushed out of the top of the room in a bubble, and you can actually feel the warm air flowing into the rest of the house.

I know that cold air is supposed to sink and warm air is supposed to rise and it would seem as though this law of physics would aid in your natural convection, especially since your pellet insert is sitting right at the bottom of the stairs.

I wonder, though, based on our experience last year with the temperature gradient, if the cold air upstairs is acting like a Wall of Cold, like a wall of dense, cold air that's just not getting effectively displaced by heat.

Those with more experience than me will have something to say about it. I'm just guessing here. I wonder, though, if hardening that upstairs against leaks and cold might reduce the temperature gradient and make it easier for the heat to "push" the cold air and displace it.

 

[SmokeyTheBear]

Heat flow is always from hot to cold, warm air rises because it is lighter than cold air. Part of the problem you are having with heating upstairs is that there is likely a very poor air path. The cold air needs to be able to sink as the warm air rises. Likely the wall layout up stairs prevents a good air circulation from occurring. Some old houses used to have registers in the ceilings that allowed heated air to rise into the upper floor. This along with a couple of stair wells would setup a good air flow. I once owned a large house that had a gravity feed hot air coal furnace in it. I did a rehab job on the furnace and installed a lined chimney the heated air came out of the center of the heat exchanger and the cold air dropped around the edge of the exchanger. There were two open stairwells one in the next room over from the only furnace air vent and the other at the far end of the house. The registers went between the floor of the second story and the ceiling of the first story. When the furnace was fired there was one he!! of a draft along the floor in the room with the air vent. The house got heated just fine.

You'll have to experiment with getting the air moving, it shouldn't take much and once started the second floor will heat up.

You also need to bring the cap up to snuff and get the rest of the walls done up stairs that planking isn't very good at maintaining heat in the building, and as it is it a large source of heat loss. After air infiltration and window loss walls generally take third place in heat loss,

 

[Havlat24]

My pellet stove in the basement heats my house just fine. Its just a little Quadra Fire Sante Fe...and its heating a 1400 square foot basement and 1400 square foot upstairs. Supposed to be -49 Celcius tomorrow.... biggest test for the quad yet. Stove is on Medium, with a slightly adjusted feed rate 1.5 Bags per day.

 

[lessoil]

Ok here is a short description of my house and what I have done in the last 3 years.

-2600 Square foot Farm House, two stories.



-Attic Insulation has R11 and nothing else.

-I have 24 Windows, I have replaced 14 of them with LOW E/Argon Filled/top of the line replacement windows. (or so I am told). Most of these were replaced on the 1st floor.




Johnny

R11 for the attic is very very low!!
Check out this link: (broken link removed to http://www.energystar.gov/index.cfm?c=home_sealing.hm_improvement_insulation_table)
Of course windows should be done too. Can put plastic window covers on for now.

We have about R38 and am thinking of adding more.
Do you build up ice on the roof?
Do you have many icicles and new ones forming even when it is below freezing?
Signs of heat escaping!!

I am not an expert, but just passing along info as I learn!

Good Luck and Happy Holidays!!

 

[Amatuer Adventurist]

I believe R38 is the minimum for the attic. Plastic on the windows helps. If there's rooms you don't use you could put Reflectix over the windows or on the back of the blind. Leave them open on sunny days to trap heat and close them off at night to relect the cold back out and the heat in. That will help even more.

(broken link removed to http://www.homedepot.com/Building-Materials-Insulation-Reflective/h_d1/N-5yc1vZ1xhuZbedf/R-100052556/h_d2/ProductDisplay?langId=-1&storeId=10051&catalogId=10053)

As for your vents you've put in the floor/ceiling. Have you tried putting a small fan over/in them. Our plan is to open the stair well and put a small fan in the floor/ceiling vent to help cirrulate the air. Does anyone have a thought on how this will work?

 

[johnny1720]

R11 for the attic is very very low!!
Check out this link: (broken link removed to http://www.energystar.gov/index.cfm?c=home_sealing.hm_improvement_insulation_table)
Of course windows should be done too. Can put plastic window covers on for now.

We have about R38 and am thinking of adding more.
Do you build up ice on the roof?
Do you have many icicles and new ones forming even when it is below freezing?
Signs of heat escaping!!

I am not an expert, but just passing along info as I learn!

Good Luck and Happy Holidays!!

-I have zero ice buildup on the roof, the attic is very well ventilated. I have never seen an icicle on this house. I think i am going to add a layer of R30 today and see how it goes, I can do it for like $400. That will give me R41 in my attic.

-Both stoves were in the 82-87% efficent range, I would rather spend the $ on insulation and windows than new stoves that are only 68% -80% efficent.

-We are utilizing a few small electric heaters to make the upstairs more comfortable.

-I really like the home energy audit idea. I will have to look into that.

The funniest thing ever to happen to us in the house was this, My wife and I went to bed one night about 11:30 and we had a water glass filled with ice. We woke up the next morning at 7:00 none of the ice had melted in the glass. That was the first time I have ever seen my wife mad. That day I installed the first pellet stove and insulated between the joists in the basement.


Johnny

 

[Pellet-King]

Right now the pellet to oil cost is pretty close or oil is cheaper, $2.39 a gal here in CT, with oil your house is uniformly heated with pellets you sweat in one room freeze in the next, if you factor in the cost of your pellets stoves it's really not worth it, could of bought a efficeint furnace for the price of them 2 pellet stoves, can you switch over to Gas?

As we speak i have my Whitfield burning on heat #2 and the furnace is running every 15 mins for 5 mins with the Tstat set to 65 and that's with 17 degree's outside, my house is a small 1500 sqft cape built 1952 and yes i did get alot of ice and icicles last winter, the attic is very small and just a 16"x 16" hole to gain access, the insualtion is prob R11 white colored with a layer of sheets of cardboard on top, i'm too big to fit up there so my lil skinny buddies have been up there, maybe i should hire a insulation contractor to replace it with R30.

 

[Huskurdu]

"-I have zero ice buildup on the roof, the attic is very well ventilated. I have never seen an icicle on this house. I think i am going to add a layer of R30 today and see how it goes, I can do it for like $400. That will give me R41 in my attic."

My house acts similar to yours. My upstairs is almost always colder than the downstairs. I do have b/b upstairs but generally keep it colder for better sleeping. I have about R19 in the attic which is a little better than you but still terribly underinsulated. R49 is suggested in my area. I have tremendous amounts of ice buildup on my roof/eaves every year. I can't imagine why you would not??? It must be because your attic is much better ventilated than mine. I am currently looking at adding 12" cellulose in the attic and venting the soffits on the eaves to help eliminate my ice issue and help retain some of the btu's I am losing. It's really a big bang for your buck when you consider it will only cost me about $700 to add 12" of cellulose to my whole attic.

Good luck with your house,

np

 

[johnny1720]

Right now the pellet to oil cost is pretty close or oil is cheaper, $2.39 a gal here in CT, with oil your house is uniformly heated with pellets you sweat in one room freeze in the next, if you factor in the cost of your pellets stoves it's really not worth it, could of bought a efficeint furnace for the price of them 2 pellet stoves, can you switch over to Gas?

As we speak i have my Whitfield burning on heat #2 and the furnace is running every 15 mins for 5 mins with the Tstat set to 65 and that's with 17 degree's outside, my house is a small 1500 sqft cape built 1952 and yes i did get alot of ice and icicles last winter, the attic is very small and just a 16"x 16" hole to gain access, the insualtion is prob R11 white colored with a layer of sheets of cardboard on top, i'm too big to fit up there so my lil skinny buddies have been up there, maybe i should hire a insulation contractor to replace it with R30.

I got both stoves on the cheap ie, under $400 each. I just called and got a quote of $2.80 a gallon for oil. I had my propane filled for my tankless hot water heater and that was $2.87 a gallon (this bill came on monday). I can get wood pellets for $225 now, I bought two tons for $250 back in October. And where I live they do not offer natural gas.

What I do is similar to what you do I set the t-state of the stove to 73 it is located near the stove. The T-state of the furnace is in the other section of the house and that is set to 69.

When I just run the furnace the house still is not comfortable. The ducts upstairs just wont press out the heat they should. I had my furnace inspected last winter and on the print out they gave me they said it was running @ 87% efficency. The technician actually said to me that that was the best kind of furnace they ever sold.

I think I am going scrap heating conventional ways and install a Geo Thermal System, with a ground source heat pump.

Of course I will have to address the ducts upstairs in my house when I do this.

Thanks for everyones assistance.

Johnny

 

[becasunshine]

I have a serious envy goin' on about that plan, Johnny. I don't know much about the installation and cost, but if you are in a place where it will work, if the start up is not prohibitive and if you are planning to stay in that house for some time, you could be way ahead of the curve in terms of heating and cooling costs. In that case, good for you!

 

[johnny1720]

I have a serious envy goin' on about that plan, Johnny. I don't know much about the installation and cost, but if you are in a place where it will work, if the start up is not prohibitive and if you are planning to stay in that house for some time, you could be way ahead of the curve in terms of heating and cooling costs. In that case, good for you!

I have been interested in Geo Thermal for several years. I recently had a family member do it in his house after the Obama tax rebate it will cost him about $18,000. He installed it in early September.

Here are his results:
September Bill up $20.00 from last year (could have been anything)
October Bill up $42.00 from last year
November Bill up $70.00 from last year.
His next bill comes 12/23/2009

He said that he usually gets two 500 gallon deliveries of fuel oil once in the fall and another in late February. Which at the current price would be $2800 per year. And he lives in house May Till October and then the month of December.

I am going to install it myself as I have access to an excavator. I will hire an engineer to help me design it.

I plan on living in this house for many many years to come.


Johnny