Rebuilding Defiant Encore (Still!)- Is it time to cut my loss?

[homebrewz]

Oh knowledgeable collective:

I am in the process of repairing a Defiant Encore (Model 0028). I nearly have the firebacks off.. still working on one bolt.

This is the prevouis post:

https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/3866/

I have noticed that around the joint between the top of the stove and the main "hull" of the stove, the joint material is cracked. I took a can of compressed air to the seam and it appears there are some gaps. I also noticed the same condition around the base of the stove back, when I took the back off.

I have to admit, I'm pretty discouraged at this point. I paid $350 for it, and have bought $400 in parts. Before I buy another $400 in parts, I really want to know if I should just give up and get rid of this thing. If you think I should keep going, what could I expect to spend at a shop to have the seals redone? Is that necessary?

 

[elkimmeg]

first question is, how much is returnable? I knew from that first picture you were in for a complete rebuild
with many replacement parts


The $400, does that include all the parts including the combustion package and the cat? or are they in addition to the $400 already spent?

where is that one bolt and what is it holding. I guess you know $350 was way too much, probably worth less than $100 and that was for parts

 

[homebrewz]

I think everything is returnable (except for the stove). The $400 I have spent includes the firebacks, glass, a gasket kit, and an oval to round connector. The additional money would go towards a new cat, refractory package, heat exchanger, and heat deflectors.

At the time, I knew it needed work, but it seemed like it had been well maintained. It wasn't until I started taking it apart that the true history of the stove started to reveal itself.

 

[elkimmeg]

my suggestion I would return all the parts. Honestly place it on Ebay admitting you were going to rebuild it but have decided to go another direction

Cut your losses and look for a better canidate possible one model run newer. In the end I think you will come out ahead. Before you purchase post here with pictures leaving a small deposit pending wife approval or any reasonable excuse to run it by us. You now know what to advoid.. If you see the cermanic pitted in the middle of the stove for no explaingd reason that stove has
been severly overfired. I not talking about areas that could chip from impact. the apperance on in unlikely places and too many of them

 

[Dave_1]

Homebrewz,

Imo Dylan is right, but so is Elk.

Right now you do not need the pressure. Few & far between are those who can make the right decision under stress. Take a break & learn, experience is the best teacher. Then in late spring look at your options since heaters will then be cheaper. ;-)

The best,

Dave

 

[elkimmeg]

I agree with Dave and Dylan. Did I just say I agree with Dylan, Boy that has to go in the hot topic post. I would monitor the local classified Craig's list and Ebay while still getting some use out of your stove. Replace what makes sense in terms of safety and $$$ and return big ticket items. Donot use the damper to damper down and you will use more wood and that stove will need more monitoring and attention smaller controlable fires only

 

[begreen]

I feel your pain man. If you can recoup your losses, close by you (Rome, NY) our own Carpneils has a nice Castine for sale that is ready for fire. See the forsale forum.

 

[ourhouse]

I would cut and run also. When I went to buy my stove I looked at a lot of used stoves. Most of them were junk, so I ended up buying a brand new one. It was way more than I wanted to spend.

 

[homebrewz]

Thank you all for your advice. Since its already here, and partially apart, I'm going to at least finish taking it apart.

I wound up drilling out the bolts that hold the firebacks on. There is a panel inside the stove, on the upper left that is held in by two allen screws. I don't have torches. I could either buy a MAPP gas torch, or Tractor Supply has a small Oxygen-Acetylene torch kit for brazing and soldering. Any thoughts as to which one I should get? At the worst, I'll just drill them out.

 

[begreen]

Are the heads of the allen screws stripped out? If not, twist on it until it either loosens or snaps off. If that doesn't work. Drill them out. It's pretty easy (and a lot cheaper) to retap the hole afterward.

 

[homebrewz]

The heads of the allen screws are not quite rounded yet. I bought the proper bit for my socket set (5/32"). I was hoping with some real heat, they might loosen up.

 

[struggle]

I am not sure if this will work for you on the bolts but tonight I took my panel from the Vigilant to the neighbors machine shop as I had broke one bolt off almost flush to the panel.

He layed a flat steel washer over the bolt and welded that to the bolt, then welded a nut to the washer and heated the casting in that area with a torch. Wrenched back and forth afor a little while being carefull to not force it and low and behold out came the bolt with the washer and nut welded to it. Very very nice trick for getting bolts out of cast.

 

[GVA]

The heads of the allen screws are not quite rounded yet. I bought the proper bit for my socket set (5/32"). I was hoping with some real heat, they might loosen up.

If the 5/32" starts to get rounded use a 4mm allen it's a couple of thousandths bigger and may give you a bit more bite.
or better yet find some left hand drill bits if its completely stripped before trying to drill through it.

 

[GVA]

And upon further review are these countersunk bolts?
If they are and they are stripped completely, a 5/32" allen would be either a 1/4-20 or 1/4-28 thread.
If you use a slightly larger drill bit than the thread like a 9/32" you can actuall drill into the head, and when it gets through the first panel it will snap the head off the bolt allowing you to remove the panel. At that point you have access to the threads ie: penetrant oil is more likely to work and a small pipe wrench will usually twist it out because you will have some of the bolt exposed. or even worse case scenario once you have drilled off the head you will notice that you have a perfect center in what's left of the bolt to drill it out and retap. and finally MAPP is Cheaper for you that oxy acetylene and should work for what you are doing. :coolsmile:

 

[homebrewz]

The allen screws are countersunk. I need to get them out to finish removing the upper fireback. That is a nice trick...welding a bolt to them, but the piece is still attached.

I'll try the 4mm allen, in combination with heating and penetrating blaster. The oxy-a kit at the store was about $50, where the MAPP gas kit was about $38. In the short term, not much price difference. If MAPP will produce enough heat for the bolts, I'll go with that.

 

[drizler]

One of those MAPP or turbo type torches is handy to have around for all sorts of reasons so its a good investment. You might try soaking those bolts in PB Blaster for a while to over night or longer before attempting those countersunk bolts. Often when one is truly stuck and you are desperate a twist tighter breakes it loose before trying counterclockwise to losten again. Then sometimes they snap, its a crap shoot.A very old timer once said the secret to torch heating is to get it cherry if possible then let it sit until its COLD again before wrenching on it.

 

[elkimmeg]

I had sucess with PB blast then hitting the bolt witha hammer or rod and hammer to shock it If to shock it and break the rust weld it will come out ,then again. A crap shoot pb blast shock treatment the repeat the process every day a head of time for a couple of days

 

[Roospike]

I had sucess with PB blast then hitting the bolt witha hammer or rod and hammer to shock it If to shock it and break the rust weld it will come out ,then again. A crap shoot pb blast shock treatment the repeat the process every day a head of time for a couple of days

That PB is just awesome stuff. I now buy it by the gallon and the old WD-40 went out the door.
That PB works on brake lines and bleeder valves , exhaust nuts and bolts , shocks , springs and other hard engine parts and that stuff is all about the worst when it come to a frozen bolt.

 

[GVA]

The allen screws are countersunk. I need to get them out to finish removing the upper fireback. That is a nice trick...welding a bolt to them, but the piece is still attached.

I'll try the 4mm allen, in combination with heating and penetrating blaster. The oxy-a kit at the store was about $50, where the MAPP gas kit was about $38. In the short term, not much price difference. If MAPP will produce enough heat for the bolts, I'll go with that.

You can also get what is called a hand impact wrench which comes in quite handy, It gives the bolt just enough shock to start it and then the bolt should come out a bit more easily.
Remember if you drill the head off of the countersunk bolt a little piece will be left behind That you can grab with a small pipe wrench (avoid vise grips)...
And also about 75% of the removal torque is gone because the head isn't jammed against the fire brick. But do this as a last resort.
one last tip since it is a socket head you can drill all the way through the bolt with say a 1/8" drill bit, this will releive some pressure against the threads and won't Damage the 5/32" hex and allow some heat to penatrate further down the bolt quicker.
;-)

 

[Roospike]

I had sucess with PB blast then hitting the bolt witha hammer or rod and hammer to shock it If to shock it and break the rust weld it will come out ,then again. A crap shoot pb blast shock treatment the repeat the process every day a head of time for a couple of days

That PB is just awesome stuff. I now buy it by the gallon and the old WD-40 went out the door.
That PB works on brake lines and bleeder valves , exhaust nuts and bolts , shocks , springs and other hard engine parts and that stuff is all about the worst when it come to a frozen bolt.

Is it available as a liquid (squeeze or pump spray) or only as an aerosol??

Both aerosol and or the galloon with a small pump bottle. Try your auto parts store or farm and home. Most places should carry it now-a-days.

 

[homebrewz]

I bought the MAPP torch and was able to heat the allen bolts to a nice dull red. After cooling they still won't budge, and now I'm out of PB blaster! One more shot tomorrow night (after another trip to the auto parts store) and if that doesn't work, I'll have to drill them out.

 

[Roospike]

I bought the MAPP torch and was able to heat the allen bolts to a nice dull red. After cooling they still won't budge, and now I'm out of PB blaster! One more shot tomorrow night (after another trip to the auto parts store) and if that doesn't work, I'll have to drill them out.

Heating up a bolt can break some rust free but keep in mine that heat will expand steel so by heating just the bolt and not the body you are expanding the bolt and will be tighter when hot.

One thing i have done is heat the area around the bolt and then take ice to the bolt. Works 7 times out of 10 for me.

I have also been told many times by auto shops to heat a bolt and area and then put wax on the bolt and when things cool it draws the wax into the thread and makes it easier to take out.

 

[drizler]

Ice, Ah remember now back to the days when men were men and congressional pages and alter boys were ( getting the same treatment they do today). Ah well, there was this thing once called FREON. It was far better than ice to shrink things like this. Freon used to be a standard procedure for installing and sometimes removing very tight fitting castings and what not. Today it is listed as the most smuggled substance on earth. Must be someone still needs it.

 

[GVA]

allright here's another one .....I like the freon idea ;-) ....... but if you get a can of that dust off spray (used for computers) and shake it before each spray it will actualy come out very cold, enough to freeze skin for a second. So in addition to using the 1/8" drill through, heat it up and then spray through the hole this will cool the bolt quicker than the surrounding metal.

 

[Roospike]

allright here's another one .....I like the freon idea ;-) ....... but if you get a can of that dust off spray (used for computers) and shake it before each spray it will actualy come out very cold, enough to freeze skin for a second. So in addition to using the 1/8" drill through, heat it up and then spray through the hole this will cool the bolt quicker than the surrounding metal.

Or just turn the can up side down for liquid.