Reducing Air Intake for England's 13-NC (Englander) - Burning too fast

[qly77]

I've been burning for 2 years on my Englander and it's great but burns too fast. I can load it up with with hardwoods and once it gets going I put damper down to zero and it still burns through quickly - no lazy flames, constant fast wind-like burning of the coals and logs from the front dog-house where the air enters the box. I have a very tall chimney (old 2 story house, high pitched roof, not sure of exact size), and I've never had a problem with draft, even when it smokes early on. Always goes up right up. There is a large air intake hole in the back of the unit. I don't have any fan on it and it's just getting inside air (not hooked up to outside air connection). I feel that with the tall chimney the draft is just so strong that it can't stop pulling in too much air even with closed damper, resulting in a fast burn and using too much wood. I should also mention that I do not have a block plate above the stove - I lose some heat up into the chimney which probably helps with the draft but I hear that having a warm chimney/liner can help reduce creosote. (maybe?).

I spoke with England's support and they said that it could be getting too much air and I could try covering a portion of the air intake hole. I covered about 1/2 of it with 3M high heat tape and It improved it slightly, but it still burns too quickly - need to refill wood after 2-3 hours. But it definitely helped some - I now see those slower "lazy" flames that I didn't see before. I still register high temps on the thermometer but it's not blazing as hot as it was before - room seems to not get as hot as it did before. It would really blast heat before (maybe too hot), but for that shortened period. Now I'm thinking about covering the hole more - maybe up to 3/4 covered to see if I can extend the burn some more.

Questions:
- has anybody done this before on an Englander or another unit that was getting too much air?
- is closing off a portion of the air intake better or worse than installing a damper in the chimney pipe just above the stove (it's tucked in a fireplace so I only have about 6-8 inches of vertical space above the stove to work with)
- what might be some adverse affects of covering up as much as 3/4 of the way?
- any other ideas? I don't want to see my bucking/chopping/stacking/drying/storing (and of course restacking when it doesn't look nice) go to waste!!
- should I install a block plate? like this.

 

[bholler]

I've been burning for 2 years on my Englander and it's great but burns too fast. I can load it up with with hardwoods and once it gets going I put damper down to zero and it still burns through quickly - no lazy flames, constant fast wind-like burning of the coals and logs from the front dog-house where the air enters the box. I have a very tall chimney (old 2 story house, high pitched roof, not sure of exact size), and I've never had a problem with draft, even when it smokes early on. Always goes up right up. There is a large air intake hole in the back of the unit. I don't have any fan on it and it's just getting inside air (not hooked up to outside air connection). I feel that with the tall chimney the draft is just so strong that it can't stop pulling in too much air even with closed damper, resulting in a fast burn and using too much wood. I should also mention that I do not have a block plate above the stove - I lose some heat up into the chimney which probably helps with the draft but I hear that having a warm chimney/liner can help reduce creosote. (maybe?).

I spoke with England's support and they said that it could be getting too much air and I could try covering a portion of the air intake hole. I covered about 1/2 of it with 3M high heat tape and It improved it slightly, but it still burns too quickly - need to refill wood after 2-3 hours. But it definitely helped some - I now see those slower "lazy" flames that I didn't see before. I still register high temps on the thermometer but it's not blazing as hot as it was before - room seems to not get as hot as it did before. It would really blast heat before (maybe too hot), but for that shortened period. Now I'm thinking about covering the hole more - maybe up to 3/4 covered to see if I can extend the burn some more.

Questions:
- has anybody done this before on an Englander or another unit that was getting too much air?
- is closing off a portion of the air intake better or worse than installing a damper in the chimney pipe just above the stove (it's tucked in a fireplace so I only have about 6-8 inches of vertical space above the stove to work with)
- what might be some adverse affects of covering up as much as 3/4 of the way?
- any other ideas? I don't want to see my bucking/chopping/stacking/drying/storing (and of course restacking when it doesn't look nice) go to waste!!
- should I install a block plate? like this.

Why not install a pipe damper? Yes you should have a block off plate but that won't change the draft. How long of a burn are you getting

 

[BIGChrisNH]

What condition are the ceramic baffle boards in? Do they go all the way over to the left and right edges of the firebox or are there gaps? I have the same stove but do not have these issues. I think someone on here mentioned gaps on an Englander effecting burn times.

 

[NickW]

Did you check your door seal? I have a 50SNC30 and it's good, but remember reading last year there were some door seal issues on some of them. Do a dollar bill test. I have 25' of vertical stove pipe and liner and draft very well, but can't go all the way shut with the air. Breezy out I can go down to 1/8 open, calm out down to 1/4 open. Full load lasts all night...8-10 hours.

 

[MainePatsFan]

Funny, I can never fill the firebox even with the air control set all the way in because it would quickly overfire. I get 3 good size dry pieces of oak and I have to be careful and monitor the thermometer. I don't notice any air feeding the fire, I just see a lot of good burning with a darker flame.

 

[qly77]

Why not install a pipe damper? Yes you should have a block off plate but that won't change the draft. How long of a burn are you getting

Solid burn is only 2-3hrs before it's all red coals.
The problem with a pipe damper is that right at the outlet from the stove it's an elbow since it needs to quicky start pushing to the rear to get to the chimney rise. It's a very tight spot. Only spot I could install a pipe damper would be right at the connection from the top of the stove....i.e. stove>damper(if it could even fit)>elbow going to the rear.

If I can't get a pipe damper due to the tight space, then would the reduction of the air intake do the trick?

 

[qly77]

Funny, I can never fill the firebox even with the air control set all the way in because it would quickly overfire. I get 3 good size dry pieces of oak and I have to be careful and monitor the thermometer. I don't notice any air feeding the fire, I just see a lot of good burning with a darker flame.

What do you mean by overfire?
Re: air feeding the fire....you don't see any air movement on coals where the "dog house" is in the front-bottom-middle?
How long will these 3 good size oak pieces burn at a good/efficient temp before you need to refill?

This is very helpful since we have similar stoves - thanks!

 

[qly77]

Did you check your door seal? I have a 50SNC30 and it's good, but remember reading last year there were some door seal issues on some of them. Do a dollar bill test. I have 25' of vertical stove pipe and liner and draft very well, but can't go all the way shut with the air. Breezy out I can go down to 1/8 open, calm out down to 1/4 open. Full load lasts all night...8-10 hours.

Door has been good - I'll probably need to replace the seal at the end of this season. When I don't close it tightly I do notice some flames appearing by the handle inside (sign of a little air coming in) then when I push it in real tight the flames stop...so I know there could be a bigger door issue coming soon, but for now it's just that small spot and I can stop it when it appears.

 

[qly77]

What condition are the ceramic baffle boards in? Do they go all the way over to the left and right edges of the firebox or are there gaps? I have the same stove but do not have these issues. I think someone on here mentioned gaps on an Englander effecting burn times.

You mean the carbon fiber board on top? Mine is good - just got a new one, since I had a hole in the corner last year and that couldn't have helped with the directional flow. The dang installer dinged it when he was installing the stove and told me it wouldn't be an issue......6 months later and a little research I learned that I was just sending heat straight up out of that hole for the whole season.

 

[MainePatsFan]

What do you mean by overfire?
Re: air feeding the fire....you don't see any air movement on coals where the "dog house" is in the front-bottom-middle?
How long will these 3 good size oak pieces burn at a good/efficient temp before you need to refill?

This is very helpful since we have similar stoves - thanks!

By overfire I mean the flue temperature going above 600 degrees. My stove can get hot very quickly so you never fill it with the air control at 100% and walk away. In general when I start a fire I will let it get to 450 degrees, then put 3 decent sized splits on and then close the air control fully. When I do that my flue temperature will stay at 500-550 for a good hour and then slowly drop. I would say at 4 hours I will have to build it up again as it has dropped below 300 degrees. I don't think these stoves were ever known for their long burn abilities. Mainly because the firebox is small. But maybe there is still too much air entering the firebox, but none that produces a noticeable air draft that I notice. I just see a very dark, deep orange flame, not the bright orange that indicates too much oxygen. The nc-30 has a larger firebox so maybe it has greater capacity for longer burns?

 

[begreen]

Calling @Dix for a bit of 13-NC running info.

 

[NickW]

I wouldn't consider flue temp over 600 an overfire (depending on the flue I suppose...). What is the flue you have? If it's a clay liner you may be correct with the diagnosis of too much draft and higher temps would potentially be dangerous. A stainless insulated liner will reduce the area/volume and allow higher operating temperatures. It almost sounds like you don't get enough secondaries firing and using the oxygen, it all goes to primary.

Small lazy flame on some of the logs, 2" empty space, floating Aurora borealis blue/orange flames up top by the tubes is what I see when it's cruising.

I have an insulated liner. I consider stt of 400-600 cruising temperature, which would generally indicate a much higher flue temperature. I don't have a flue probe, but my Condar Inferno EPA stovetop thermometer shows "too hot" at 650... I know MadMark has told me he hits 750 stt with the same stove (nc30) nearly every time he reloads, sometimes 800. I try to avoid that, but hit 700 here and there.

I'm sure the more experienced guys will chime in if this is wrong, but I almost wonder if more wood would be ok for you (depending on your flue). Once you choke it down all the oxygen is going to fire the secondaries leaving little for primary. As the secondaries die out, more oxygen is available for primary causing more offgassing and refiring the secondaries and again leaving little for the primary.

When I first started with this stove I could only get to 500-550 stt, choke it down, cruise at 350-400 stt for an hour or 2, then lose temp quickly and need to reload. Couldn't get the longer burn cycles. As I increased load size I saw higher temps, longer secondaries, longer burn cycles... I go from full air to half air at 400-450 stt, temp continues to climb, 1/2 air to 1/4 air at 500-600 stt. If it's breezy I can go down to 1/8 air. Always watching the flame and stt until it levels out. If I start creeping over 700 I'll close the air all the way and temp will continue to rise a little until the secondaries die, then there's not enough air to refire the primaries until it cools down some and I reopen the air. That only happens occasionally on full loads of hardwood if it all takes off at the same time and is all offgassing at the same time.

 

[PJP]

I have a 13-nc and just warrantied out an older one because of warping on the top & bottom door not creating a good seal. Could be an issue there.

 

[MainePatsFan]

I just use one of those magnetic Rutland stove thermometers about 2 inches above the stove collar attached to a steel flue that attaches to the stainless liner. You can see it in my profile pic which is 7 years old now. Maybe I need a newer thermometer. Rutland just marks "OVERFIRE" above 600 degrees. I have followed this thermometer over the past 7 years and always get a thumbs-up for my burning from my chimney sweep who I hire every two years. This is the stove, that when I was first learning how to use it, I accidentally let it get up to around 800 causing the top to glow faintly and set my smoke detector off and actually caused the thermometer to lose its magnetic bond temporarily.

 

[begreen]

I wouldn't consider flue temp over 600 an overfire (depending on the flue I suppose...).

Yes, this would be very hot for a surface thermometer on single-wall stove pipe.

@qly77, try closing down the air sooner, do this in increments.

 

[NickW]

Ahhh... that's a different story. The fellows here refer to flue temp as that measured by a probe thermometer 18-24" up the pipe, which is going to be hotter than stt or pipe surface temp. If your pipe surface is that hot, stt is probably hotter and internal flue temp even hotter. As previously stated in another post recently, no bueno...

 

[begreen]

It's always important to determine whether the thermometer is a surface mount on single-wall or probe on double-wall. Ironically, now that I read via a digital probe I no longer trust my probe thermometer either. It is simply too slow to react and usually about 100º low.

 

[Dix]

"Jogs in"

Love my 13, but the best burn time is 4-6 hours. Depends on the wood loaded into it.

Very seasoned FW is gonna give you a max burn time of 4-5 hours, and a heat output of 6 -7hours tops.

 

[Dix]

And it runs 600F -800 F stove top like a rock star.

 

[Das Jugghead]

Questions:
- has anybody done this before on an Englander or another unit that was getting too much air?
- is closing off a portion of the air intake better or worse than installing a damper in the chimney pipe just above the stove (it's tucked in a fireplace so I only have about 6-8 inches of vertical space above the stove to work with)
- what might be some adverse affects of covering up as much as 3/4 of the way?
- any other ideas? I don't want to see my bucking/chopping/stacking/drying/storing (and of course restacking when it doesn't look nice) go to waste!!
- should I install a block plate? like this.

I have a small wood stove that I modified the intake on in an effort to slow down fast burns as well as reduce a strong draft. I have 28' of insulated stainless liner above the stove and it draws exceedingly well - too well.

Here is a thread on the intake modifications I made to it:

Pleasant Hearth WS 2417 Outside Air Intake Build

At the end of 2018 I purchased a Pleasant Hearth WS-2417 woodstove. That installation and subsequent learning process is described here: https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/pleasant-hearth-ws-2417-install-challenges-questions-observations.173074/ Several issues have been on the list to...

www.hearth.com

And here is the original installation of the stove and subsequent learning curve:

Pleasant Hearth WS-2417 install/challenges/questions/observations

A little background: I purchased a Pleasant Hearth WS-2417 about two weeks ago from Menards on sale. It is my first EPA stove and I am a moderately experienced wood stove operator. It is installed in my fireplace and connected to an insulated flexible stainless steel liner. I installed the...

www.hearth.com

The intake modifications have helped slow down the burn and extend burn times. Moreover I have seen an increase in heating efficiency by virtue of the stove not drawing combustion air from the living space. Last season we could actually feel cool air migrating across the floors toward the stove. That cool air was taking away from the heat the stove was creating.

This morning I decided to fabricate and install a restrictor plate in the stove collar to try and slow things down a little more. I had three and a half hours of secondary action and the stove maintained better temperatures longer than in previous tests. I think I will fabricate another restrictor plate with a smaller orifice tomorrow and see how that works. When I go to install the new plate I will get pictures of how it is installed.

For now here are the pictures of the plate. The metal tabs around the circumference are what hold the plate inside the stove collar. The hole in the middle is 2.5" in Diameter - I am planning on a 1.5" hole on the restrictor plate for tomorrow.

 

[begreen]

I have a small wood stove that I modified the intake on in an effort to slow down fast burns as well as reduce a strong draft. I have 28' of insulated stainless liner above the stove and it draws exceedingly well - too well.

Here is a thread on the intake modifications I made to it:

Pleasant Hearth WS 2417 Outside Air Intake Build

At the end of 2018 I purchased a Pleasant Hearth WS-2417 woodstove. That installation and subsequent learning process is described here: https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/pleasant-hearth-ws-2417-install-challenges-questions-observations.173074/ Several issues have been on the list to...

www.hearth.com

And here is the original installation of the stove and subsequent learning curve:

Pleasant Hearth WS-2417 install/challenges/questions/observations

A little background: I purchased a Pleasant Hearth WS-2417 about two weeks ago from Menards on sale. It is my first EPA stove and I am a moderately experienced wood stove operator. It is installed in my fireplace and connected to an insulated flexible stainless steel liner. I installed the...

www.hearth.com

The intake modifications have helped slow down the burn and extend burn times. Moreover I have seen an increase in heating efficiency by virtue of the stove not drawing combustion air from the living space. Last season we could actually feel cool air migrating across the floors toward the stove. That cool air was taking away from the heat the stove was creating.

This morning I decided to fabricate and install a restrictor plate in the stove collar to try and slow things down a little more. I had three and a half hours of secondary action and the stove maintained better temperatures longer than in previous tests. I think I will fabricate another restrictor plate with a smaller orifice tomorrow and see how that works. When I go to install the new plate I will get pictures of how it is installed.

For now here are the pictures of the plate. The metal tabs around the circumference are what hold the plate inside the stove collar. The hole in the middle is 2.5" in Diameter - I am planning on a 1.5" hole on the restrictor plate for tomorrow.

View attachment 266931View attachment 266932View attachment 266933View attachment 266934

A key damper would have the same effect, but be much more controllable for varying draft conditions, like startup and milder weather.

 

[Das Jugghead]

A key damper would have the same effect, but be much more controllable for varying draft conditions, like startup and milder weather.

I agree but do not have the space for a key damper on my particular setup.

 

[begreen]

The huge advantage with a key damper is user control. I am not keen on fixed restriction because it may make for poor performance in mild weather. But I see the issue. Maybe relocate the block-off plate higher up?

 

[Das Jugghead]

The huge advantage with a key damper is user control. I am not keen on fixed restriction because it may make for poor performance in mild weather. But I see the issue. Maybe relocate the block-off plate higher up?

I agree. At this stage I am not in a position to move the block off plate up higher. One function the block off plate performs in addition to blocking off the top of the fireplace, holding up the insulation in there, and preventing heat from the stove from being wasted up the chimney, is that it helps convect heat out of the fireplace.

In the ideal world if we build a retirement house it would have a free standing wood stove on a large masonry hearth - hey a guy can dream right?

 

[begreen]

Raising the block off plate up high into the damper area can still serve that function.