Researching new Boiler system for house

[catengnman]

Need some help trying to figure out what I want to install in my home for a new boiler. My current setup is a horrible, low 80's percent propane boiler with a pilot that burn enough fuel that it could power a jet across the Atlantic Ocean. This thing burns fuel at a rate of about 1 tank (400 gallons ) a month. That is $800 if at $2 a gallon. I have not burned LP at this rate since I bought the home 2 years ago but that is what the former owner stated. With that Gas Pig in play, a outdoor wood boiler was installed by previous owner. Much cheaper to burn wood but after last years winter I am tired of all of the work involved to cut, split and stack. Plus I am tied to the house and have to feed this thing 2 times a day. I burned approximately 50 cord of wood last year and everyone has told me that was waaaaay to much. Some folks around town have told me they burned less than half of that. The boiler is likely 5-10 years old. Global Hydronics is the brand and it seems they had major inefficiency problems. I am interested in the Pellet boilers but cant find much on them or what people think of them.

Questions on my mind.
1. How reliable are they?
2. How many tons should I consider stocking up on a year? What kind of burn rate?
3. How are the warranties, services, customer service,?
4. Is it worth the money spent? High % gas units are half the cost. propane price vs. pellet prices saving money or not????? Should I consider a newer EPA wood boiler?
I know this is a long post to start but so many options but I like the idea of wood/pellets or even corn.

Looking for facts, opinions and whatever. Any and all views would be appreciated.

 

[heaterman]

We are in your back yard so to speak and have installed over 20 Windhager BioWin pellet boilers over the last year or so.
To date this is what I can tell you about using pellets for fuel vs propane or oil, in general
and Windhager boilers in particular.
As with any heating equipment, it's performance is largely dependent on proper sizing, installation and setup. There are items that have to be done in a certain way and you will pay the price if corners are cut. As someone here said....."your boiler will obey the laws of physics even if you don't".

All of the users we have installed pellet boilers for have reported a fuel cost reduction of at least 50%.
For every $1,000 they spent on propane they are now spending $500 for pellets. Their next statement usually goes something like,
"and now we keep the house at 70* instead of 65*"....or less.
"We love not running out of hot water too" is another common statement.

Here are some examples.
*Newer house, 5,200 sq ft with a family of 7 living in it. Running the boiler 365 days a year. Total pellet use for the first year was a little over 13 Tons or about $2,300 for fuel
*Newer 2800 sq ft house with two retirees living in it. Total pellet use for last winter (we all know what that was like) 5.2 Tons or a little under $1,000 fuel cost. Previous propane bills were in the $23-2400 range
*Old drafty farmhouse built in the late 1800's. Previously went through 20+ full cords with an outdoor wood burner feeding it 2-4 times per day. Pellet use last winter 14 Tons or about $2,700. (owners comment...."first time in years we ran around the house in our T-shirts and shorts all winter"
*Dairy farm (milking 1500 head) with a huge heating and hot water load 365 days per year. Burned approximately 60 Tons of pellets at a cost of a bit less than $10,000 Previous fuel cost with LP gas was over $20K.
*My own house, old, drafty, poor insulation in spots, Previous peak month natural gas bills would be in the $330-$370 range. Peak monthly pellet use equaled about $250.

Now......Windhager in particular. The only problems we have had are 2 PCB's that were damaged in shipping.
We have had no field failures of any kind. No parts have failed or broken. We have not had a single service call to repair anything on them. Wish I could claim that kind of reliability with some of the gas fired equipment we sell.
Windhager constructs their boilers with the thinking that their equipment will be the primary heat source rather than an auxiliary or back up heating system and it shows in the stellar performance we have seen from them. They are made to be almost maintenance free. Typical residential users report having to clean them only 2-3 times per winter.
As to warranty on the Windhagers it is 5 years on everything but I have to say the best warranty is the one you never need.

If you hook one up to a bulk bin using their auto fill turbine you could literally not touch the thing for 6-8 weeks at a time. Even if you manually fill the integral 8 bag hopper, you only have to tend it 2-3 times per week. This is a vast difference compared to 2-3 times per day with any wood burner.
As to corn.......this year the price is decent, the last several....you might as well have burned LP gas. Fuel quality is a huge factor and is very inconsistent. One batch may be great and the next may cause you to "expand you vocabulary". Pretty mixed reviews from everyone who uses corn.

Send me a PM if you have more questions or would like to see one installed and operating.

 

[velvetfoot]

I have to say that it is way quieter than I expected. The vacuum feed turbine is loud, but that only happens once a day or so and lasts for less than a minute.

Depending on your heat load, you may need a buffer tank. I'm still using my insert, but the boiler allows an adequate temperature upstairs, great domestic hot water, and a feeling that I don't have to crazily keep cranking the insert . The buffer tank helps with this variable kind of load.

So far, so good; I love it.

If you can get free wood and are physically able and willing to process it, a gasifying wood boiler with plenty of storage might be the ticket. You still have to build a fire at least once a day, I imagine. With a bin and automatic feeding, a pellet boiler can be like an oil or propane boiler where you just have to refill the tank periodically, and clean it only infrequently.

On the other hand, if you're using so much propane, maybe you have big energy losses due to lack of air sealing or insulation that could also be addressed. That will continue to save money over time no matter what fuel you use to heat the place.

 

[maple1]

Assuming that you will only be heating the house (no outbuildings or garages?), and that you would also prefer to burn pellets (as opposed to cord wood - since you sound sick of that) - look no futher than the first reply to this thread.

If you would like to still burn wood but much less of it, and maybe heat a garage or something else as well - you have a whole bunch of choices and possibilities, so make like a huge sponge & read the bejeebers out of this forum.

 

[Deering]

I too have a Windhager pellet boiler, and I second everything Heaterman and velvetfoot said above. They're incredible machines and I couldn't be happier. I heat 3,000 sf of living space and apartment, along with hot water for both, plus 1,500 feet of garage/shop space. Last year I burned 6 tons and cut my oil heating bill by 56%. If I had been burning LP I can't imagine how expensive that would have been up here, but I likely would have saved double that.

If you have experienced installation and service support (not that you're likely to need much with a quality pellet boiler) in your region, such as Heaterman, that makes the decision easy. And while I am totally satisfied with my Windhager, they aren't the only European imports of that caliber - the Okofens and Frolings are two that are in the same class as Windhager (but cost more), and there are some American models that are making big strides as well. You won't go wrong with any of them - I'd compare service and price when making a selection.

And as maple1 said, there are a bunch of high quality, efficient cordwood systems out there. If you have access to a good supply of cordwood, that will probably be your cheapest fuel option. A modern cordwood system will burn a lot less wood than you're burning, and that's a lot less splitting and stacking and loading. You'll still have to fire it up at least once a day and deal with cordwood handling and storage, so if that's not what you want to be doing, a pellet boiler with bulk storage is the 'easy button'.

This site is a great place to educate yourself.

 

[buggyspapa]

Sorry if this is off topic. Heaterman, what is the largest bin/hopper you've installed in a residential space? Have there been any issues with filling/venting, dust, incomplete capacity usage? May I PM you about storage issues?

To the OP, please describe the house, insulation, etc. so we can get a better picture of your situation. Boiler is a small part of the solution to the problem. As in heaterman's post, straight numbers without details can lead to assumptions about what is in fact the problem.

 

[heaterman]

Sorry if this is off topic. Heaterman, what is the largest bin/hopper you've installed in a residential space? Have there been any issues with filling/venting, dust, incomplete capacity usage? May I PM you about storage issues?

To the OP, please describe the house, insulation, etc. so we can get a better picture of your situation. Boiler is a small part of the solution to the problem. As in heaterman's post, straight numbers without details can lead to assumptions about what is in fact the problem.

We have not done any residential size bins.Over half of the BioWins we have sold are replacing wood boilers and the owners think they have died and gone to heaven because they only have to feed their boiler every 2-3 days instead of 2-3 times per day. Here in the boiler backwater state of Michigan there are no incentives for bulk storage like some states out east.

As far as considerations with a bin go.........it has to be well sealed obviously. Seams or joints caulked. The capability to ventilate it must also be incorporated in the design should you ever have to go inside it. (provided it's that big anyway......)
Minimum slope to the sides should be 45* but you'll still have probably 10-15% that will not slide to the bottom.

 

[heaterman]

A couple more answers to your questions.......

If you are going through 400 gallons of propane a month that would equal a little less that 2 tons of pellets.
So let's say pellets are $199/ton and propane is $1.89 per gallon. 2 tons of pellets will cost you about $400 and 400 gallons of propane will cost you $756.
You'd be roughly 1.75 cords of seasoned firewood to give you equivalent btu's and around here that in the $200 range. You have to decide if the time needed to process and handle that much wood + the daily or more firing is worth the difference between wood and pellets.

I would not recommend getting an OWB from a company that does not have an EPA PhaseII rated unit for the simple reason that a lot of these will be out of business and you'll be left with no warranty at all.
Also, if you do go with a gasification type wood burner, be aware that wood you process right now will be ready for the 2016/2017 heating season. You absolutely cannot burn unseasoned wood in a gasifier.

 

[Deering]

what is the largest bin/hopper you've installed in a residential space? Have there been any issues with filling/venting, dust, incomplete capacity usage?

I built a bin out of plywood in my garage that holds about a ton. Since we don't have bulk delivery here I load it with 40 lbs bags. It's been no trouble at all - I back my truck or car into the garage right up to the bin - takes maybe 20 minutes to fill it up. The run of hose is about 20 feet to the boiler. I'd have built a larger bin, say two tons, but someone here pointed out that the bin was already intruding into her parking space and I was violating my 'lease'...so I kept it a one ton. That's about enough for six weeks of operation in the heart of winter.

Dust has been no problem. The bin has a couple lids with gaskets around them, even without the gaskets I don't think dust would be a major issue.

If you search around on this forum you'll find a post of mine with pics of the setup.

As Heaterman said, the slope needs to be at least 45 degrees. Mine is about that but I'd suggest steeper, like maybe 60 degrees. I use an old broom handle with a small board at the end to act as a 'pellet pusher'. When the bin starts getting low, I use this to push the pellets over the intake. It hasn't been a problem.

 

[velvetfoot]

I built a square 4x4x4 box for pellets. I did not make any sloped walls. My philosophy is that it will create a natural cone anyway so why bother with making it more complicated, which is a very low bar for me.

I think it is a whole other ballgame however, as far as dust is concerned, when that big truck pulls up in your driveway to blow several tons of pellets into a bin in the basement.