Sanity check on DIY liner install

[pitpawten]

First of all, thanks for all the knowledge on this forum, good stuff!

After a couple of days of lurking/searching I think I have a pretty good idea on what I need to do for my liner, but have a couple of questions that I didn't see explicitly covered:

Round peg, square hole: Need to get the round pipe from my insert up through the rectangular throat/flue in my fireplace without taking out the flue frame (though flue plate will come out) or destroying the throat. I want to be able to pull out liner and insert later maybe.

Is this really just as easy as going from Round>Oval>Round with my pipe? I guess this rules out a "kit" as I haven't seen any with this piece, and means I am probably DIY'ing this part as well?


"Clearance? We dont need no stinkin clearance": I have 11"x11" ID terracotta flue tile in the chimney, and will be installing a 6" liner. In my estimation this leaves ~2.5" clearance on all sides. Surely this is not considered a "zero clearance" install requiring insulation right?

I know there are other benefits of insulation like efficiency and insurance etc, but I don't think I'm in a "must have it" situation right?


Get what you pay for....or not: I've been pricing 25' x 6" round liner kits and the pricing is from ~ $450 - $650 for online dealers. I'm having a local guy quote me too when he does the inspection (yeah, I'm getting it properly inspected ) however I expect that will be much more.

Am I hitting in the right area with my prices, or should I be looking somewhere else for an obviously lower price.




Thanks again for a great resource, and I look forward to posting my 'Craigslist Find Refurb' thread with pics in a couple of days once the paint has dried (which takes a while in 24 degrees )

 

[pen]

First off, if you need to ovalize the bottom, I'm not sure how you'd be able to get things back to round after squishing the liner, to be able to connect the insert to the liner. This is why cutting out the frame is often done so that the liner can go down without deformation.

With an 11x11 flue, I'd insulate. Insulation is a must if there are any defects in the chimney itself. Defects could be things such as cracked tiles, or not being installed with proper clearance to combustibles.

Also, don't forget to clean the snot out of the chimney before putting the liner down. It needs to be CLEAN! Also, do you have plans for the block off plate?

 

[pitpawten]

First off, if you need to ovalize the bottom, I'm not sure how you'd be able to get things back to round after squishing the liner, to be able to connect the insert to the liner. This is why cutting out the frame is often done so that the liner can go down without deformation.

The damper opening turns out to be ~5.5" so I'm thinking I will just slightly ovalize one end and send that down the chimney and pull it through the opening. Since its not that much deformation, I'm thinking I can probably open it back up enough to attach to the adapter.

I'm kind of surprised that fewer people want to preserve the fireplace as-is so that it can easily be converted back to open-hearth if you want to sell or remove the insert...I guess I just like options.

Was kind of hoping someone else had some experience here too.

With an 11x11 flue, I'd insulate. Insulation is a must if there are any defects in the chimney itself. Defects could be things such as cracked tiles, or not being installed with proper clearance to combustibles.

So I am having it inspected to verify the condition, however its only had ~20 fires through it in its lifetime, so I am hoping that things are ok. I thought 1" between liner and flue and 1" between masonry and wood construction was the requirement.

I should be GTG on both as I should have a little more than 2" between liner and flue and know I have 1" between wood construction and chimney (father built the house and you can verify that studs are gapped from masonry behind wall).

From additional reading however, it might make sense from an efficiency standpoint as it is an exterior chimney.

Also, don't forget to clean the snot out of the chimney before putting the liner down. It needs to be CLEAN! Also, do you have plans for the block off plate?

I am planning to put the plate inside the fireplace not too high above the top of the insert. Probably roxul in the smoke chamber/shelf area all the way down to the top of the plate. Have lots of leftovers from when I custom fabricated all new rigid HVAC lines including the Plenum's (thats for another forum )

Also planning on insulating behind/around/on top of the insert. The insert has its own air chamber between the outer shell and the firebox where the fans blow the air through, however any heat that comes through the outside of the outer shell will sort of just sit between the surround and top plate. Insulating there should force it to stay inside the air-chamber....I think :D

 

[BrotherBart]

I'm kind of surprised that fewer people want to preserve the fireplace as-is so that it can easily be converted back to open-hearth if you want to sell or remove the insert...I guess I just like options.

The reality is that a chimney top damper costs around a hundred and a half and turns it back into a fireplace. With a damper that is far superior to the ones that are originally built into masonry fireplaces.

 

[bholler]

So I am having it inspected to verify the condition, however its only had ~20 fires through it in its lifetime, so I am hoping that things are ok. I thought 1" between liner and flue and 1" between masonry and wood construction was the requirement.
I should be GTG on both as I should have a little more than 2" between liner and flue and know I have 1" between wood construction and chimney (father built the house and you can verify that studs are gapped from masonry behind wall).
From additional reading however, it might make sense from an efficiency standpoint as it is an exterior chimney.

Insulate it if in fact you do have that 1" of clearance to combustibles everywhere but the corners of the chimney by code you would not have to do it but it will work much better if you do. We always cut out the damper frame we do it cleanly so it could be put back with a few mending plate later if desired though. I strongly recommend cutting it and not ovalizing the liner it will work better and be easier to instal and clean later. And by the way the condition of the liner has no bearing on whether or not you are required to insulate i don't know where that came from but it says nothing about it in the code books.

 

[Jags]

From additional reading however, it might make sense from an efficiency standpoint as it is an exterior chimney.

Even more reason to insulate it.....

 

[pitpawten]

And by the way the condition of the liner has no bearing on whether or not you are required to insulate i don't know where that came from but it says nothing about it in the code books.

Right I didn't see anything in the code that speaks directly to tile condition (brief read-over). However I think the general consensus was that even if you are not required to insulate due to code, you probably should insulate if the flue tile is compromised in any way. I think this is because heat could escape through the cracks in the tile.

I just sort of took this as a "better safe than sorry" rather than a statement of code compliance.


This foil backed insulation looks like it has to be available cheaper as a generic insulation item rather than the price it goes for at the "Liner" retailers. The exact same 6"x25' insulation package (same stock photo at every retailer) ranges wildly in price depending on where you check. Has to be some kind of industrial source for this that is WAY cheaper. Maybe I'm wrong though


Thanks for the suggestions so far, is there a way to support the site when buying online like affiliate links or something?

 

[bholler]

Has to be some kind of industrial source for this that is WAY cheaper. Maybe I'm wrong though

Not really and some manufacturers require you to use their insulation to maintain the ul listing. Just add that price into the total when shopping around. We just insulate every liner we put in regardless of the need for it to meet code that is our policy that way there is no confusion

 

[pitpawten]

We just insulate every liner we put in regardless of the need for it to meet code that is our policy that way there is no confusion

Yeah, makes sense. Had I just started including it in my price when quoting from the start (rather than considering it an option) I would never have thought twice about it

Failing to account for the financial cost of wasted time when getting up to speed on a DIY project.....me

 

[pitpawten]

So wanted to post back that I settled on getting an insulated liner from WoodlandDirect.com. They market it as "Champion" liners, and this is just a re-branded Olympia liner system.

Price was decent, and reviews on Olympia seem to speak to good quality. I put it in last week (pics will be in a new thread once finished) and it wasn't too bad.

The only problem is that I shorted myself a bit on the length of liner and it only extends maybe 4" past the damper at the top of the fireplace


I'm thinking about using some black stove-pipe (adjustable elbow and straight) to bridge the gap from the insert and liner, any problems in doing so? All going to be wrapped in Roxul.

 

[bholler]

I'm thinking about using some black stove-pipe (adjustable elbow and straight) to bridge the gap from the insert and liner, any problems in doing so? All going to be wrapped in Roxul.

don't do it get either another length of liner or some stainless rigid and components.

 

[pitpawten]

don't do it get either another length of liner or some stainless rigid and components.

Care to elaborate?

I believe you can use stove-pipe from a free-standing unit up to the wall (or up to the flue liner if going through existing chimney), why not stove-pipe for the couple of inches between the insert and liner.

This section would be exposed inside of the fireplace, nothing above the damper (i.e. enclosed).

Not being contrary, just curious if this is a "best practice" kind of thing, or presents an actual problem.

Thanks.

 

[bholler]

I believe you can use stove-pipe from a free-standing unit up to the wall (or up to the flue liner if going through existing chimney)

Yes that is exposed and easily inspected but unless you are going to regularly puul your surround and fully inspect that connection i would not do it. And it is required that any non accessible components be ss which to me the connection on an insert in non accessible.