Time for a chimney liner?

[newfire]

My insurance company has said they won't insure my existing stove (too old and doesn't have an EPA rating), so I need a new stove and a WETT inspection (I'm in Canada).

My current setup is a free standing wood stove in my basement. It connects to a masonry chimney like this:

Unlike this diagram, there is no metal liner in the chimney. Instead I have the original clay liner, which is still in good condition.

Because the stove is in the basement, the are no combustibles near where the stove enters the chimney. However, the chimney goes past the main floor and attic of the house. There I have 1/2" of clearance from the house framing.

From my digging around it seems that 1/2" clearance is fine if the chimney is on the exterior of the house. However, at some point a garage was added around the chimney, so presumably this now counts as being an "interior" chimney, which requires 2" clearance.

I know I can't get a real answer to my question without paying for an inspection by an expert in all the local rules. But I would like to learn all I can before I start shoving out $300+tax.

I would love to just order a new stove, hook up the stovepipe and be done with it. But I don't want to do all that, then pay $300+tax for an inspection that I will still fail.

If it isn't OK to just swap out my existing stove, then it seems that the solution is putting an insulated liner in the existing masonry chimney. Unfortunately, I can't find anyone who sells insulated liners around here. The local hardware stores sell regular liners, but those still require the 2" clearance. I've gotten estimates from a couple places that having them install an insulated liner will cost at least $2500 and up to $5000. That's more than I might spend on a new stove! (I've been looking at the Drolet 1800.)

In short, my question is: Do I definitely need an insulated liner or is there a chance I can just swap out the stove and be good to go?

P.S. Thank you so much to this community. I've been lurking for a while figuring all this out. I have learned so much here already. Hopefully I've learned enough to ask an intelligent question!

 

[Ashful]

@bholler can answer to the chimney clearance issue, he's a pro, but I do believe your assumption is correct there.

WRT new stoves into clay chimneys, here's the issue in a nutshell: Old stoves were inefficient by comparison, meaning they dumped a lot of the heat they're making up the flue, instead of into your house. This worked well for the flue, as cold flues don't draft well, anyone who has witnessed draft reversal on a warm day realizes you need your flue much warmer than ambient to draft correctly.

However, new stoves are very efficient at putting more of the heat you're making (fire!) into your house, and less of it wasted up the flue. Many find that when running a new stove into an old clay liner flue, which may have always worked fine with an old inefficient stove, that they just don't draft well at lower burn rates. Call it "Cold Flue Syndrome" or CFS, Pfizer is probably working on a pill for that.

You might even get away with it when the stove is roaring, but find it stalls an hour or three after turning down for a longer burn. This forum is full of people thinking they'll get away with running a modern stove on a clay liner, only to come back and realize they should've just slid a new stainless liner into it from the beginning. This is a DIY job, if you're marginally handy and not afraid of going up on the roof.

 

[Hoytman]

Rockford Chimney

The original and best source for chimney liners, flue caps & more. Made in USA with stainless steel. DIY videos, articles, a helpful staff & free shipping!

www.rockfordchimneysupply.com

 

[EbS-P]

Code says interior chimneys need 2” clearance or a UL listed insulated liner.

Tax credit for qualifying stoves applies to stove and liner cost for a DIY install.

 

[bholler]

Exterior in the us requires 1" I beleive Canada is 1.5

 

[newfire]

You might even get away with it when the stove is roaring, but find it stalls an hour or three after turning down for a longer burn. This forum is full of people thinking they'll get away with running a modern stove on a clay liner, only to come back and realize they should've just slid a new stainless liner into it from the beginning. This is a DIY job, if you're marginally handy and not afraid of going up on the roof.

Thanks!

If it is legal/insurable, I'd probably want to try without a liner first. In all my digging it certainly does look like I can install the liner myself. The main problem seems to be sourcing the insulation. I was finally able to find one company in Canada that will sell it. Their price with shipping is about $600 CAD for 25' of 6" insulation.

 

[newfire]

Rockford Chimney

The original and best source for chimney liners, flue caps & more. Made in USA with stainless steel. DIY videos, articles, a helpful staff & free shipping!

www.rockfordchimneysupply.com

Thanks. Unfortunately it seems that they won't ship to Canada. Their shipping page says that they can ship to a location near the border and allow pickup. But I live too far from the border for that.

 

[newfire]

Code says interior chimneys need 2” clearance or a UL listed insulated liner.

Tax credit for qualifying stoves applies to stove and liner cost for a DIY install.

Yup, definitely needs to be insulated if I need the liner. Unfortunately I'm in Canada so no Tax credit for me!

Exterior in the us requires 1" I beleive Canada is 1.5

I'm pretty sure that 1/2" is the requirement for exterior in Canada. That's what I've found online and what all the local dealers/installers I've talked to have said.

My question is basically two parts:
1) Does the garage added later around the chimney "convert" it to an interior chimney?
2) Do I need to upgrade the whole system to latest codes even if I just swapping out one part (the stove)?

If the answer to both of those is "yes" then I will need an insulated liner. If not then maybe I won't.

 

[bholler]

Yup, definitely needs to be insulated if I need the liner. Unfortunately I'm in Canada so no Tax credit for me!



I'm pretty sure that 1/2" is the requirement for exterior in Canada. That's what I've found online and what all the local dealers/installers I've talked to have said.

My question is basically two parts:
1) Does the garage added later around the chimney "convert" it to an interior chimney?
2) Do I need to upgrade the whole system to latest codes even if I just swapping out one part (the stove)?

If the answer to both of those is "yes" then I will need an insulated liner. If not then maybe I won't.

Yes to both

 

[newfire]

Yes to both

That's what I was afraid of. But thank you very much for confirming! Unfortunately this will 2-3x the cost of a new stove, but I guess it can't be avoided.

Thank you everyone for being so helpful!

 

[EbS-P]

That's what I was afraid of. But thank you very much for confirming! Unfortunately this will 2-3x the cost of a new stove, but I guess it can't be avoided.

Thank you everyone for being so helpful!

Liners and insulation are really that expensive? I was able to get my 25’ of liner with my SBI insert for like $300 US 2019 and paid another $350 for the UL insulation. Just looked they are charging $400 CA more for the insert liner kits now

And $600 for 35’. It’s light wall but….. I couldn’t even find a thickness.

6"Ø X 35' STAINLESS FLEX LINER KIT

Includes: a 35’ flexible liner, a 13" x 13" no leak top plate, a 6" tee with removable snout with cap and a quick cap with no screen.

www.drolet.ca

I still think wrapping your own liner shouldn’t cost more than that. Can you buy insulation wrapping kits?

Looks like Rockford will ship to Canada. And they have a list of location in the US they will drop ship to for your pickup.

Free Shipping Information | Rockford Chimney Supply - Rockford Chimney

Rockford Chimney Supply is pleased to be able to provide free shipping to any of the lower 48 US states. Need shipping elsewhere? Please contact us.

www.rockfordchimneysupply.com

 

[newfire]

Liners and insulation are really that expensive? I was able to get my 25’ of liner with my SBI insert for like $300 US 2019 and paid another $350 for the UL insulation. Just looked they are charging $400 CA more for the insert liner kits now

And $600 for 35’. It’s light wall but….. I couldn’t even find a thickness.

6"Ø X 35' STAINLESS FLEX LINER KIT

Includes: a 35’ flexible liner, a 13" x 13" no leak top plate, a 6" tee with removable snout with cap and a quick cap with no screen.

www.drolet.ca

I still think wrapping your own liner shouldn’t cost more than that. Can you buy insulation wrapping kits?

I did find an insulation wrapping kit for about $600 CAD. And the Drolet liner you linked to seems to be a decent price. It will probably end up around $700-800 CAD with shipping and taxes. So it does look like I could maybe do it for $1400 CAD. However, I was reading other posts here and it seems like I should be trying to get a mid weight liner rather than a lightweight one. I haven't yet found a place to get that in Canada yet, but they seem to be a fair bit more expensive. For example this one is over $1000 USD. And if I ultimately decide to hire a professional to install it, most of the estimates I've gotten are around $3000-3500 CAD (and I'm not sure what quality of liner they are using).

Looks like Rockford will ship to Canada. And they have a list of location in the US they will drop ship to for your pickup.

Free Shipping Information | Rockford Chimney Supply - Rockford Chimney

Rockford Chimney Supply is pleased to be able to provide free shipping to any of the lower 48 US states. Need shipping elsewhere? Please contact us.

www.rockfordchimneysupply.com

That page says, "Listed here are US pick-up depot locations where our Canadian customers can request Rockford Chimney Supply to ship to one of the addresses below. All depots are located within the US near Canada’s border." I'm too far from the border for it to be practical for me to drive across and pick things up.


I don't want to take this thread too far off topic. I may open a new thread for help choosing the right liner. But I got my answer to this question: I do need an insulated liner.

Thank you!

 

[ABMax24]

Did you get a quote from insurance company for what coverage would be if everything passed the wett inspection? Reason I ask is some insurance companies are all over the map, at least in Alberta, for the additional charge for a wood stove. Mine only went up $200/year, but I do know some people that the stove upped their insurance $2000/year, they just removed the stove.

 

[newfire]

Did you get a quote from insurance company for what coverage would be if everything passed the wett inspection? Reason I ask is some insurance companies are all over the map, at least in Alberta, for the additional charge for a wood stove. Mine only went up $200/year, but I do know some people that the stove upped their insurance $2000/year, they just removed the stove.

I did! They said it would be about $150/year more.

 

[Ashful]

I've seen a few here mention that buying a pre-insulated liner is the way to go, due to the challenge and frustration of wrapping your own. I have no experience with this, other than having helped a pro wrap two of mine 10+ years ago. I needed them and their equipment to access the insanely tall roof that one of my chimneys happens to penetrate.

In any case, if going with insulated liner, which is best, you may want to shop pre-insulated.

 

[joop]

states have to much choice ,we don't have enough lol

 

[Ashful]

states have to much choice ,we don't have enough lol

Weird. You'd think woodburning can't be all that uncommon in the Great White North, eh?

Why can't you get chimney liners? Some silly law?

 

[ABMax24]

Weird. You'd think woodburning can't be all that uncommon in the Great White North, eh?

Why can't you get chimney liners? Some silly law?

It's not that common in many places. Here for instance, natural gas was discovered and pipelines run to almost all communities before they got big, which is cheaper and easier than wood for most people. In my neighbour of 250+ houses I'm the only one with a wood stove.

And when it is common the chimneys are typically pre-fab metal types.

 

[begreen]

Lightweight liners are in thousands of homes. With proper care it could last a couple decades. If that's what makes the system affordable, then go for it. I think the Drolet liners are Ventis which is a good product.

 

[Hello_Stingray71]

Insulated liner all the way, always.

 

[Crab]

In my neighbour of 250+ houses I'm the only one with a wood stove.

Natural gas is that cheap??? Your average highs show teens for 3 months that's d#$% cold. .

 

[ABMax24]

Natural gas is that cheap??? Your average highs show teens for 3 months that's d#$% cold. .

Before I put my wood stove in the fall of 2019 the highest monthly gas bill I had seen was $160, $50 of that was fixed fees unrelated to usage. Gas itself used to be about $2.50/million btu, that's closer to $9 now with increased prices and carbon tax.

The gas comes from beneath my feet, we sit on very large liquids rich gas reserves.

Meh, you get used to the cold. Hot & humid certainly isn't my thing.

 

[Lireland19]

Liners and insulation are really that expensive? I was able to get my 25’ of liner with my SBI insert for like $300 US 2019 and paid another $350 for the UL insulation. Just looked they are charging $400 CA more for the insert liner kits now

And $600 for 35’. It’s light wall but….. I couldn’t even find a thickness.

6"Ø X 35' STAINLESS FLEX LINER KIT

Includes: a 35’ flexible liner, a 13" x 13" no leak top plate, a 6" tee with removable snout with cap and a quick cap with no screen.

www.drolet.ca

I still think wrapping your own liner shouldn’t cost more than that. Can you buy insulation wrapping kits?

Looks like Rockford will ship to Canada. And they have a list of location in the US they will drop ship to for your pickup.

Free Shipping Information | Rockford Chimney Supply - Rockford Chimney

Rockford Chimney Supply is pleased to be able to provide free shipping to any of the lower 48 US states. Need shipping elsewhere? Please contact us.

www.rockfordchimneysupply.com

I just picked up a 25' uninsulated liner kit from my dealer to the tune of $700 and change.

 

[scdngy]

Why are liners necessary inside a good chimney anyway? How does exhaust from a pellet stove travel differently in a liner than in a chimney without a liner? I'm with the original poster thinking why and what for and really? "It's code" doesn't fly with me. Please enlighten me, thanks.

 

[bholler]

Why are liners necessary inside a good chimney anyway? How does exhaust from a pellet stove travel differently in a liner than in a chimney without a liner? I'm with the original poster thinking why and what for and really? "It's code" doesn't fly with me. Please enlighten me, thanks.

Well this isn't a pellet stove we are talking about here it's a wood stove. And the existing clay lined chimney didn't have the clearances required to ensure the adjacent combustibles don't ignite in the event of a chimney fire due to heat transfer. Because of that with a new install you are required to install it to modern safety standards which means an insulated liner. If the chimney was built properly to begin with and the clay was in good shape a liner would not be required. But would still offer big performance benefits