Time for a chimney liner?

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To elaborate further on bholler's last sentence, modern stoves are more efficient than older stoves. Read "efficiency" as "more heat into your room, less heat up the chimney". With less heat going into the chimney, draft suffers, as heat is the engine that makes draft work. Big clay tile chimneys require a lot more energy going into the flue to heat them up well enough to provide consistent draft in all weather conditions. Lightweight stainless liners, much less so, and even better if they're insulated.
 
If you look at a recent link that @BKVP provided the efficiency of an old Fisher compared to “other” modern “efficient” stoves (besides a BK) showed they (modern stoves besides a BK) aren’t all that much more efficient than the Fisher is, if I understood it correctly, and I believe I did.

I’m looking forward to him posting more information from that link.

As I see it there are different types of efficiency. In other words, that word “efficiency” in and of itself doesn’t tell the entire story. Again, the way I understand things.
 
If you look at a recent link that @BKVP provided the efficiency of an old Fisher compared to “other” modern “efficient” stoves (besides a BK) showed they (modern stoves besides a BK) aren’t all that much more efficient than the Fisher is, if I understood it correctly, and I believe I did.

I’m looking forward to him posting more information from that link.

As I see it there are different types of efficiency. In other words, that word “efficiency” in and of itself doesn’t tell the entire story. Again, the way I understand things.
So the VP of a company posts a study claiming that no stoves other than theirs have improved very much in the past 40 years despite all the testing and experience of many many others.

You don't see an issue with that?
 
It was a cherry-picked slide out of many which we have not seen. Only one modern cat and one modern non-cat were mentioned out of 97 tested. There is no mention of particulate output in the slide, just efficiency and only during a low burn. And by that measure, the Fisher outdid the Harman P61 pellet stove regardless of how badly the wood was smoldering and how much smoke was coming out of the chimney.
 
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Why would I have an issue with it? Just because he’s the VP of BK? Ok, I see your point…but the snippet listed “other” stoves and compared “those” brands with the Fisher numbers…and from that is why I said what I did…

…the link came from this post. Not sure of I can get link to post or not.

No need for guessing and there is still much more to this most recent study, just under limited release. Full study can be posted soon, once deemed "sharable".

Environment Canada just paid to have a VERY extensive study done on efficiencies, VOC's, black carbon etc. It is based upon an Italian cordwood test method. The finding are very interesting, especially given the regulators are really looking at VOC's. But this is a snip on the 93 tests they did as it relates to efficiency. (We can start a new thread once the entire study can be posted)
Here we go…

 
It was a cherry-picked slide out of many which we have not seen. Only one modern cat and one modern non-cat were mentioned out of 97 tested. There is no mention of particulate output in the slide, just efficiency and only during a low burn. And by that measure, the Fisher outdid the Harman P61 pellet stove regardless of how badly the wood was smoldering and how much smoke was coming out of the chimney.
Actually, if you look at the link the Fisher “outdid” a 2020 EPA Drolet stove, a pre-EPA Pacific Energy, as well as an EPA pellet stove (hardly cherry picking throwing in pellet stove) …and if you look at the numbers and by comparing those numbers my comment still stands…they’re not much more efficient. But what exactly is efficiency? What do they mean by it?

Many think efficiency means one thing, and I don’t agree. Efficiency of what? Heat transfer into the the room? Efficiency of clean burn? Efficiency of fuel use? Efficiency as in burn time? The picture is much larger in my mind.

Yeah…that link was supposedly a snippet of an overall larger (study) amount of stoves, but just look at the two brands listed (besides the BK) and we see they’re two stoves that come highly recommended on forums. I can’t see the unlisted stoves being anymore or less impressive. Those stoves are all in the sale class, hybrids in their class, and BK in its class…nearly alone.

I find it interesting that on different forums people that talk about the “high” efficiency of modern stoves compared to stoves of the past, yet these same people often make statements like: “heating from a basement the older comparable sized stove will put more heat into the room than the modern epa stove”…only to see a person provide pictures of removing a modern stove (pick a brand) and returning the old guard (stove) to its former duty. I’m describing one event, but I’ve seen many like it posted on forums and backed up with pictures. Sure, the new stoves burn cleaner at lower burns, but also fail to provide enough heat. One example is a guy on another forum removed an EPA stove (Big Drolet) and put an old Warner back on duty. I’ve seen the same scenario with other modern brands and Fishers put back on duty. Granted, the context of these examples were basement installs…and so it may not be fair to compare that type of install with one where the heater is upstairs in the house where a modern stove with more control shines…control as in not blasting the user out of the room.

Yeah…when @BKVP provided that link, I don’t at all think it was to disparage other stoves, or even to put BK up on a “pedestal”, pun intended….LOL. I think it simply to let the numbers speak for themselves. If you read that thread agreed with me that the Fisher had impressive numbers all things considered.

There are two bottom lines in my mind:
1. Dry wood, dry wood, dry wood is where it’s at.

2. BK stove technology (catalyst combined with their bi-metal regulator) is in its own class with less than ideal dry wood.
 
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Actually the Fisher “outdid” an SBI Drolet stove and a PE if you look at the link and the numbers and by comparing those numbers my comment still stands…they’re not much more efficient. But what exactly is efficiency? What do they mean by it?

Many think efficiency means one thing, and I don’t agree. Efficiency of what? Heat transfer into the the room? Efficiency of clean burn? Efficiency of fuel use? Efficiency as in burn time? The picture is much larger in my mind.
I have used an old Fisher still do and quite a few modern stoves. And I see absolutely no way whatsoever that the Fisher is anywhere near any of those stoves in any metric of efficiency.

BTW he also regularly points out that most stoves are run on low most of the time but fails to mention that most stoves sold in the us when run low are putting out btus comparable with blazkings run medium high. When the statistics are cherry picked they can be made to say anything
 
Actually the Fisher “outdid” an SBI Drolet stove and a PE
A 1993 PE, one of the originals. There have been notable changes in the past 30 years.

The chart is at low output only. For a Fisher, this is bordering on smoldering.
 
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I’ll apologize in advance to moderators if this part of the discussion detracts from this thread causing it to be off topic.

I have nothing else to add in regard to the link BKVP provided.
 
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I’ll apologize in advance to moderators if this part of the discussion detracts from this thread causing it to be off topic.

I have nothing else to add in regard to the link BKVP provided.
No worries
 
Well this isn't a pellet stove we are talking about here it's a wood stove. And the existing clay lined chimney didn't have the clearances required to ensure the adjacent combustibles don't ignite in the event of a chimney fire due to heat transfer. Because of that with a new install you are required to install it to modern safety standards which means an insulated liner. If the chimney was built properly to begin with and the clay was in good shape a liner would not be required. But would still offer big performance benefits
By "adjacent combustibles" do you mean only creosote or are there other things in a chimney that can catch fire from exhaust? Does 'clay in good shape' mean very little creosote or even unused? Thanks.
 
By "adjacent combustibles" do you mean only creosote or are there other things in a chimney that can catch fire from exhaust? Does 'clay in good shape' mean very little creosote or even unused? Thanks.
No I am talking about wood etc outside the chimney structure but in contact or to close to the masonry. Not talking about anything inside the chimney.
 
I have used an old Fisher still do and quite a few modern stoves. And I see absolutely no way whatsoever that the Fisher is anywhere near any of those stoves in any metric of efficiency.

BTW he also regularly points out that most stoves are run on low most of the time but fails to mention that most stoves sold in the us when run low are putting out btus comparable with blazkings run medium high. When the statistics are cherry picked they can be made to say anything
The entire test report is currently in EPA and other hands. Often it is pointed out that efficiency negligible between technologies. I was simply showing that part that supports the range in efficiency is greater than often portrayed by those "in the know".

Incidentally, published and hyped Btu's by others should read the ACTUAL test reports on manufacturers websites. Not brochures. The EPA website is also where these are posted....but, they are the overall numbers. Do the reading of reports and you can compare Btu's for specific burn rates.

You must also remember to factor in test end points between ASTM3053 and M28R.

I'll ask ECCC if I can post entire study. If so, I'll upload it.

BKVP
 
The entire test report is currently in EPA and other hands. Often it is pointed out that efficiency negligible between technologies. I was simply showing that part that supports the range in efficiency is greater than often portrayed by those "in the know".

Incidentally, published and hyped Btu's by others should read the ACTUAL test reports on manufacturers websites. Not brochures. The EPA website is also where these are posted....but, they are the overall numbers. Do the reading of reports and you can compare Btu's for specific burn rates.

You must also remember to factor in test end points between ASTM3053 and M28R.

I'll ask ECCC if I can post entire study. If so, I'll upload it.

BKVP
Ok in what way is an.old Fisher more efficient than a harman pellet stove?
 
Read study once posted. Done by guys a great deal smarter than me...

BKVP
 
What is the LHV efficiency of the Ashford 30.2? I'm looking at a comparison between the PE Adlerlea T5 (LHV = 77%, falling to HHV = 71%), and the BK Ashford 30.2 (unlisted LHV, going to HHV = 77%). It's expected that wood savings between these two models will vary with heat demand or burn rate, but without the numbers, it's hard to really make a comparison.

Of course, "low" on these stoves is different, maybe we should compare a median value from the Ashford to the LHV on the T5. But either way, it shouldn't be difficult to do at least a very rough estimation of wood savings between the two.
 
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Ok in what way is an.old Fisher more efficient than a harman pellet stove?
It's more efficient in putting out more smoke. I had a Baby Bear once upon a time.
 
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What is the LHV efficiency of the Ashford 30.2? I'm looking at a comparison between the PE Adlerlea T5 (LHV = 77%, falling to HHV = 71%), and the BK Ashford 30.2 (unlisted LHV, going to HHV = 77%). It's expected that wood savings between these two models will vary with heat demand or burn rate, but without the numbers, it's hard to really make a comparison.

Of course, "low" on these stoves is different, maybe we should compare a median value from the Ashford to the LHV on the T5. But either way, it shouldn't be difficult to do at least a very rough estimation of wood savings between the two.
We dropped the LHV once the IRS and EPA stopped recognizing it. Back in 2008, the LHV efficiency calculation was 101%. for the KE1107! We as manufacturers were permitted to self-calculate the efficiency using one of three formulas. The LHV was for the 4 run overall average and has nothing to do with just the "low" run, other than the value was part of the formula.

BKVP
 
We dropped the LHV once the IRS and EPA stopped recognizing it. Back in 2008, the LHV efficiency calculation was 101%. for the KE1107! We as manufacturers were permitted to self-calculate the efficiency using one of three formulas. The LHV was for the 4 run overall average and has nothing to do with just the "low" run, other than the value was part of the formula.

BKVP
Fair enough. But do you have a rough number we could use for some quick back-of-the-envelope math? PE posts 77% for the T5, and given BK's strong emphasis on "low and slow", I'd think the Ashford 30's efficiency at a burn rate similar to the T5's "low" setting might be a good bit higher.

Point is, many have claimed a substantial reduction in firewood usage, when moving from a non-cat to both Blaze King or Woodstock cat stoves. This has been repeated enough times by enough members that it must have some basis in truth, at least under certain circumstances. It'd be nice to have some mathematical quantification of or justification for this.
 
Closing thread OPs question was long ago answered.

Derailed_thread.jpg
 
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