school house need help heating!

[school_house_heater]

hello I'm new here (been lurking for a couple of weeks now) and i have been trying to figure out what way i need to go for my home. this might be a long post.... sorry in advance

I'm not new to heating with a wood stove, or a pellet stove, have both and use both. the old pot belly stove is in the cabin and the pellet is in the home I'm moving from.

here's the thing. i just bought a home, an old one room school house, and i just love it but i have noticed that even though i have the house set to 60 the LP furnace runs just about all the time! and it's only been between 40-50 degrees around here. i can only imagine what it will be like when winter hits!

the square footage is about 2,400. the first floor(technically is the basement) is finished and has 2 bedrooms a family room and 9-10ish ft ceilings
the second floor (the main floor) has the kitchen/dining area, living room, and master bed. pretty open has 13-14ish ft ceilings
the loft is well just that a loft lol

here's the problem. first the furnace almost never shuts off(the atic is insulated.... could use more that's a project from this winter, the floor form teh basement to the main is no insulated, also i can't really do anything about the main floor exterior walls). second the thermostat is in the living room which is a southern exposure and is lined with large windows so the room warms up and the thermostat shuts off the furnace causing the basement to become quiet brisk.
thirdly i love wood heat been around it my whole life so it's really a no brainer on getting a stove but where to put, and will it do what i want (heat all the floors) is the question.

there is a large existing masonry chimney in school now that looks in good condition from what i can tell. i'm guessing i would have to put a new pipe in for the new modern day stoves. it goes all the way to the basement.

i am wondering and hoping if a wood stove/pellet stove (leaning to wood majorly) might do the trick of heating the home... the problem is that the only real spot for it is in the basement in the family room. and from what i have read the basement isn't a great spot for the stove...

i guess I'm just wondering what do you guys and gals think would work best for heating the house, all floors get used. a wood furnace add on is not really an option since there is no room at all in the furnace room so that's out...

just looking for help about where i should look what i should do what size stuff like that. the local stove dealers really aren't much help. any and all input and help is greatly appreciated!

-Neal


included are some pics to hopefully make sense of what im talking about. (dont mind the mess i was ripping off wallpaper and painting when some of these picks were taken)

 

[school_house_heater]

a few more pics.

again i hope you great people can point my in the right direction! wood stove/pellet stove, stove placement, other things i should consider stuf like that.

thanks again!

 

[learnin to burn]

Is that 2400 sq ft total or for each floor?

It doesn't look like you have a good avenue for heat to flow upstairs so trying to heat everything with 1 stove might be a real challenge even for the big boys. If each floor is 1200 sq ft. you might consider a medium sized stove for each floor.

 

[savageactor7]

Welcome, first of all...that's a great house.

Usually I wouldn't recommend a wood stove to anyone that doesn't have their own source of wood. But with so many windows I suppose you're better off with wood than than letting all that high priced fossil warmth out the window. You can probably stack 10 cord under that deck too. Hopefully there's a room by the chimney on the main floor you can have a pro thimble into and enjoy a nice full standing stove.

I don't think you be as happy with a pellet stove in that house.

 

[Wood Duck]

I think I would put a big wood stove in the basement with a new pipe running up the old chimney. Try to get some distance between the stove and the fireplace, so there is plenty of room to radiate heat. The stove should at least keep the lower floor nice and warm, and probably help with the upstairs since the floor is not insultated. I am sure it would be better to have a way to move air from the bottom floor upstairs, so perhaps there is a way to add grates or registers into the floor? A stove on the bottom floor seems like the easiest installation, and I think will have a much better chance of heating both floors than a stove on the upper floor (which would not heat the lower floor much at all). Sombody else suggested two stoves, which I am sure would work better if they were both running, but with two you'd have twice as much effort to keep them burning, and/or you'd have to start twice as many fires. Also, you'd have to figure out how to install a flu pipe into the chimney on the upper floor, which I guess would mean cutting into the stone chimney. I think if it was me I'd go witht he easier installation on the lower floor and count on the wood stove providing some of the heat for the house, but probably not all.

 

[begreen]

Greetings Neal. Getting a stove set up in the 1st basement floor should help a lot this winter if you can obtain several cords of dry wood now. That is going to be the crux of the issue. If not, the results may be disappointing regardless of stove.

The first step is to have the current flue inspected by a certified sweep. You'll want to get a status report on its current condition, construction, and tile liner size. Is this chimney on the interior or exterior of the bldg.? It looks like the stair opening is large enough to move a lot of heat upstairs. How close is the flue outlet to the spiral staircase opening? If the flue looks good this could be as simple as dropping a liner down it and connecting it to a good sized (3 cu ft) stove. If you can post a floorplan sketch of both floors we can review for heating circulations issues and solutions.

The other issue that will need to be addressed over the long term is heat loss. Have you considered insulated panels or curtains for the large glass area? Even with thermopane windows that represents a lot of heat loss. Wall and ceiling insulation should also help a lot. Maybe talk to someone about the option of having some blown in the walls upstairs?

 

[fredarm]

Wood stove downstairs, pellet stove upstairs? You can vent the pellet stove through the wall if you don't have a second flue in the chimney. That way you have your main heat (and any wood mess) downstairs with the pellet stove as supplemental heat upstairs.

 

[edthedawg]

Man that's a cool old place. I'm an old house junkie - love it!

Gotta be 2 or 3 flues in that chimney - only 1 serving the LP burner. So you oughta have 2 more to play with. I'd be thinking of two stoves - prob a couple big'ns. One in the basement, one on the main floor. You'll prob find you can run only one of them most of the time, but will enjoy having them both.

And as noted by savage above - you gotta have your cut, split, stacked, seasoned & dry wood supply squared away if you're gonna think of this working well for you.

Any chance that large property could house an OWB for you?

And what's the LP system running - forced air? hot water baseboards?

 

[Jags]

I will second (or third or whatever) the idea of getting the flue inspected, drop down a liner (insulated if possible) and slam a big 'ol stove in the basement of that thing. I would be looking at the 3+ cu ft range. Uninsulated brick walls are COLD.

 

[SolarAndWood]

Very cool house. While a wood add on furnace may be out because of the restrictions you mentioned, you could put a boiler wherever you want and use a water to air exchanger in the furnace. You could take care of hot water with this setup as well. At some point, you could add radiant floors in those big open spaces and zone them separately.

Folks in the boiler room who do this might have some ideas for you.

 

[school_house_heater]

thanks so much for all the help, i apologize for my long post I'm sure that didn't make much sense i had a really really long day yesterday.

i just love old houses and i have always liked school houses for some odd reason so it really was a treat when i found this place.... just not looking forward to heating it with just the LP forced air furnace

ok with the wood, i have access to to hard dry wood for this winter and i will be cutting trees up this winter for next year so that's not too big of an issue atm. gotta build a wood shed too lol

each floor is roughly 1200 square feet
i will get some sketch's of the floor plan this weekend when i have time to make them. i can't really insulate the exterior walls because they are solid brick and whatever materials they used (i haven't dissected a all yet to find out exactly what) plus its a foot thick so i don't really see an easy way to that.... all of the windows have very nice blinds that fit very snugly in the window casements. so that's a good thng with the windows at least.

yeah i'm really just looking for any ideas that will help me on heat, plus i'm just a sucker for wood... i dunno just can't beat it in my books.... i'm hoping to use the existing chimney. i'm just not a fan of putting holes in things, especially in an old home that still has lots of old school (no pun intended) traits and characteristics!

if i get a stove i know it will probably be a big one... i have been trying to read up on as many as i can but its almost dizzing how many are out there, all i have every used is an old pot belly so i never really had to look for stoves. its a bit crazy how many and the different kids that are out there.


on a side note the chimney of the school is part of one of the walls in the master bedroom, i have an old small pot belly that my great great grandmother used to heat her small house just sitting in the basement of my current place. i'm thinking i might be able to use that in the master bedroom which if any room on the main floor would get the coldest, its on the northeast corner of the building and chills pretty quick.

but i will get the sketch's and explain things more when i do that, but so far i know basement heating is hard to do but i hope i can make it work...

thanks so far for all the input and warm welcome!

-Neal

 

[meathead]

No great advice at the moment - but awesome house looks like some great projects in your future

 

[pgmr]

Our NG Bryant furnace has an ECM (Electronically Commutated Motor, also called a DC motor) that draws less than 100 watts on low. It does a great job of circulating the air warmed by the insert in our 2200 sq ft ranch. Even if your blower is an older PSC (Permanent Split Capacitor) it would certainly be less expensive to run it than to install two stoves and keep them fed.

I'd start with one large stove in the lower level and try the furnace blower to enhance air movement.

Of course, if the house is leaking air and heat like a sieve, then that should really be your first starting place.

 

[littlesmokey]

Don't know what your money situation is, but if you are on a budget I would do the windows first. The combination of the high ceilings and all that glass make it very hard for any heating unit to work. If the windows are not insulated, do that first. Add ceiling fans second and then think about a stove. At some point those naked brick and plaster walls will need to be insulated. Great house, but it is a heating nightmare without attention to keeping it in.

 

[tickbitty]

What an awesome house!! Jealous here! I second that motion on the windows. Do windows in 09 (tax rebate) and Stove in 10 (tax rebate!) Or vicey versey!

 

[Danno77]

several comments.
1. I frequent a forum that you MUST visit (if you haven't already) it is oldhouseweb.com - you'll find some other school house owners and old house lovers in general there.

2. You can't put a wood stove in your bedroom. When I first came here I had that idea, too.

3. go to that forum mentioned above for REAL FACTS regarding old windows. DO NOT TOUCH YOUR WINDOWS BEFORE YOU DO!

 

[edthedawg]

I'd echo Danno's sentiments strongly on the windows thing - except the pix make it look like all the windows are vinyl replacements already save up to replace those in 10 yrs.

I'd also say that insulation and windows sound like nice things - and i know they do work wonders - but you gotta HAVE heat in order to KEEP it. Sounds like you have an expensive means of keeping the house barely warm enough, w/ the LP-fired forced air. So if you have the seasoned wood supply at hand, let's see if we can't make it 80*F in there and worry about heat loss later

In keeping w/ the "not putting holes in things" theme, you still need to check that chimney out completely. identify the usable flues and their size (cross-section and height from cap to floor). then you can go fwd and address your lining requirements. that's really going to dictate what your options are (6" pipe vs 8" pipe). You obviously want one or two of the largest stoves you can fit into these spots.

Your second pic shows a fireplace AND an adjacent thimble/crock cover, looking like there was a direct-vent stove hookup in the past into an adjacent flue. So there's at least 2 flues. But it's a huge chimney - wouldn't shock me if there's 3 total, w/ the LPG occupying one of them. and you need to measure the open "fireplace" there to see if you could put in floor protection (assuming that's not a slab there? gets easier/cheaper for you if it is) and a hearth stove w/ a rear connection to a cleanout-T (makes future liner cleaning a LOT easier that way).

Assuming no open hearth/fireplace area on the main floor? then connecting a stove up there is a bit of a question, yes. but it'd likely be similar to what you see in the basement (thimble/crock into the flue) with appropriate lining connected inside the flue.

If you're lucky, there are two empty, large, clean flues and you can drop a pair of 6" stainless liner kits in there, and work out the connections...

but you got some homework to do

 

[Wet1]

The first thing I'd do is slam a BK King in the basement and then look for simple ways to actively move the air upstairs. You have access to wood, so start using it ASAP.

The next thing I'd do is go find a lot of bubble wrap (the small bubble variety) and use it to cover as many of the windows as you can tolerate covering. Do this by cutting the bubble wrap to fit the glass panes. Spray/mist the windows with water and place the bubble wrap on the window with the bubbles facing the glass (a little soap in the water helps if it doesn't want to stick). This might sound crazy, but adding the bubble wrap over the glass as I suggested will increase the R value of the windows by at least R1, yet still let that nice sunlight in for solar gain. It might not look as good, but when you have that much glass, increasing the R value by even R1 will make a huge impact!

 

[Danno77]

The next thing I'd do is go find a lot of bubble wrap (the small bubble variety) and use it to cover as many of the windows as you can tolerate covering. Do this by cutting the bubble wrap to fit the glass panes. Spray/mist the windows with water and place the bubble wrap on the window with the bubbles facing the glass (a little soap in the water helps if it doesn't want to stick). This might sound crazy, but adding the bubble wrap over the glass as I suggested will increase the R value of the windows by at least R1, yet still let that nice sunlight in for solar gain. It might not look as good, but when you have that much glass, increasing the R value by even R1 will make a huge impact!

I have never heard of that in my entire short life. I LOVE IT! did you just make that up? read it online? where did that come from? I'm so gonna try that, where do i get lots of free bubble wrap!?!?!?!?

 

[Wet1]

It's something I started doing many years ago when I lived in an old farm house (much like the one in your avatar), but I've more recently seen it mentioned online. It works very well!

 

[Bobbin]

What a great space! Your schoolhouse is just about the same size as my home, save the ceiling heights.

I think the advice about capitalizing on rebates for window improvements is fabulous. I looked at the windows and the first thing I thought was, wow! lotsa heat escaping there. (I make draperies for a living and business has been holding steady since last winter's fuel prices). Ditto the comments on rebates for new stoves and timing your purchase.

What about some efficient ceiling fans to keep the heat you already have down where you can actually enjoy it?

 

[school_house_heater]

took me a little longer than i wanted to get back to the forums but I'm back

OK some knowledge about the school's updates.... it was abandoned for a long while and the school was restored 15 years ago and that's when most everything was put in like the furnace and the vinyl windows and roof ( that is a sore spot with me at the moment, basically the only reason they school was even savable 15 years ago was because it had a metal roof on it, they removed the metal roof when they restored it and put on a crappy asphalt shingle roof that i am going to have to replace coming up very shortly)

i'm looking at getting one of these stoves..... a hearthstone equinox, a pacific energy summit classic, harman TL300, any other suggestions or concerns with these or other stoves?


here are the rough sketch's of the school.

 

[myzamboni]

Equinox in the living room downstairs with pipe running straight up out through the 'house'

 

[begreen]

If there are 3 flues, looks like a stove per floor to me.

 

[Frostbit]

Equinox in the living room downstairs with pipe running straight up out through the 'house'

Times 2.

I might also recommend the PE later, after the various inmates here get theirs welded or replaced.