Selling a home with wood heat? Oregon DEQ wants your old wood stove destroyed after August/ 2010

[BrotherBart]

http://tinyurl.com/2cwvu6y

 

[madrone]

Old news here, of course. I've been getting updates from the state DEQ email list on progress of this, and they've held regular open houses on it. Removal of old stoves is already the law in a few Southern Oregon cities. Air quality in some of those cities is horrible in winter, and it's all wood smoke. I have mixed feelings. It does nothing to address fireplaces, but most fireplace users are not using them for primary heat. It seems a little heavy handed unless you've actually witnessed inversions in high wood burning areas. If someone buys a house with an empty hearth and decides they really want one, they'll have to be serious enough pony up the bucks for an EPA stove. This program will only really work if there's a mass information program as well to teach people to burn seasoned wood.

http://www.deq.state.or.us/aq/burning/woodstoves/questions.htm

 

[SolarAndWood]

Seems like banning non-epa stoves in those areas would be more effective at addressing the air quality issues in those select areas than a statewide real estate transaction tax. Are they trying to get at enforceability? Make the realtors police the wood burners?

 

[Slow1]

Seems like banning non-epa stoves in those areas would be more effective at addressing the air quality issues in those select areas than a statewide real estate transaction tax. Are they trying to get at enforceability? Make the realtors police the wood burners?

I suspect it is more along the lines of having a massive revolt on their hands if they actually tried to enforce a law against all existing old stoves. How would they do it? Go and visit every home? Under what authority? So many easy ways to challenge that one. Once you are settled in your home and nothing is happening - i.e. you aren't changing anything that invites an inspection per regulations it is hard for any agency to actually justify entering for inspections I suspect. Then there is the cost - having inspectors visit every home to check on stoves would require many hours of work from some dept - who gets paid the overtime and who gets to pony up the cash for that bill eh?

 

[SolarAndWood]

I have only owned property in NY, so I can not speak for anywhere else. When someone complains about a code violation, local authorities respond to the call and decide if it is indeed a code violation and then use the tools they have at their disposal to deal with it. If someone has a bunch of crap blowing out their pipe constantly, they would show up and ask to see the EPA stamp. If there isn't one, they write a ticket. If there is one, they educate them on how to season wood and/or use their stove.

BTW, I am generally in complete agreement with the property rights argument and not a fan of any of this type of legislation. However, if you are smoking out your neighbors, you are violating their property rights.

 

[madrone]

I think the aim here is to avoid inspecting stoves like they inspect cars, or an outright ban. The sale of uncertified stoves has been banned for years here, but not owning one or using it. (A quick glance at craigslist will, unsurprisingly, reveal a constant supply of "antique" rusty steel smokedragons) This law makes you scrap the stove you won't be using anymore anyway, because you're leaving. When you buy the house, you have to put in your own new stove. As far as I can see, the only person this really messes with is someone who really wants to take the old stove with them. If you don't move, you can burn your home-made barrel stove until you die.

 

[Highbeam]

In my area, a condition of a house sale is a septic tank pumping and inspection to include the drainfield. It's an actual requirement. You are also required to sign and record an agreement that the owners of your parcel will repeat this inspection/pumpout every three years forever. It's a revenue generator for the health department, the pumpers, and the inspectors. If you don't sell your home then you can just go on with life.

As a victim of annual burn bans in the winter when too many dirty stoves are running, I actually kind of like this idea for the woodstoves. You can't really smolder a fireplace the same way since there is no air control.

 

[Slow1]

So in addition to the removal of smoke dragons someone may come up with the bright idea to require new owners to sign an agreement that if they put a new stove in they will only burn dry wood that is inspected and certified to be less than x% MC. Now that would be scary not from a willing to comply (dry wood is great) but talk about revenue generating for someone (or more to the point - money out of the pockets of those who burn).

 

[Nonprophet]

http://tinyurl.com/2cwvu6y

Yeah, and the ridiculous part of that is for those of us living in the Willamette Valley we get literally TONS of smoke from the grass seed farmers burning their fields (which is finally being phased out) and now they're permitting these "biomass fuel plants" left and right that are little more than big huge woodstoves producing electricity instead of heat while pumping tons of particulate matter into the air. So in Oregon if you make money polluting the air with smoke that's ok, but if you're low income and can't afford a new woodstove to stay warm, well tough luck...........

NP

 

[soupy1957]

This particular topic begs the question..............

What, if any, are the drawbacks of attempting to sell a home with a stand alone wood stove in it. (Not that the wife and I are thinking of doing so, but just a curiosity). I'm wondering if selling a home with a wood stove is a deficit or an asset? I suppose that "Location" is an important part; and whether or not there is a furnace backup.

40 years from now, when I'm too old to lug wood (I'll be 90 then, Lord willing), I wonder how much I'm hurting my resale value, if at all?

-Soupy1957

 

[begreen]

It really depends on several factors like the quality of the installation, visual attractiveness, stove condition, geography, etc. A well done stove installation in a rural or semi-rural location is usually seen as an asset, especially in areas that have frequent power outages. A run-hard, steel black box on a makeshift hearth with a rusting pipe on the side of the house could be seen as a liability. As fuel costs increase this may change.

 

[Highbeam]

I think it comes down to the buyer. It's like a back yard swimming pool. I think it's a negative (though I am a big water guy) where many folks think it's a positive.

 

[begreen]

Interesting analogy. As temperatures increase, the value of having a pool may also increase. I know my relatives that just moved to NC are dying to have a pool now.

 

[BrotherBart]

This particular topic begs the question..............

What, if any, are the drawbacks of attempting to sell a home with a stand alone wood stove in it. (Not that the wife and I are thinking of doing so, but just a curiosity). I'm wondering if selling a home with a wood stove is a deficit or an asset? I suppose that "Location" is an important part; and whether or not there is a furnace backup.

40 years from now, when I'm too old to lug wood (I'll be 90 then, Lord willing), I wonder how much I'm hurting my resale value, if at all?

-Soupy1957

If you are 90 when you go to sell the house the assist bars everywhere, ramps at the doors, drool stains on everything and other stuff like that is gonna impact the sale more than the stove will. :lol:

 

[begreen]

LOL, and the aroma of old Depends... :lol:

 

[soupy1957]

I'm operating from the point of view that I'm relatively healthy at 90, and we don't leave drool stains everywhere! (lol)

-Soupy1957

 

[BrotherBart]

I'm operating from the point of view that I'm relatively healthy at 90, and we don't leave drool stains everywhere! (lol)

-Soupy1957

You ain't gonna believe what starts happening about ten years from now. Really.

 

[oldspark]

I'm operating from the point of view that I'm relatively healthy at 90, and we don't leave drool stains everywhere! (lol)

-Soupy1957

You ain't gonna believe what starts happening about ten years from now. Really.

Youre killing me here!

 

[btuser]

How about a tax rebate (either income, sales or property) to pay for the new stove? All of it, not just federal. This is an unfunded mandate. How are you going to enforce this? Video tape and spectral analysis of the offending plumes? No more burning you own wood? Instead, we'll have to peel back the plastic wrapper to warm our houses, like kids eating Lunchables?

I deal with electrical/fire alarm codes on a daily basis. Every 3 years I have to waste a weekend in a class room to talk about all the changes that will come with the new addidition to the electrical, fire and building codes. It was said to me 10 years ago and I finally believe it: The government doesn't give a damn about code enforcement. Individual inspectors can be very good at what they do, but in the end, the codes are product-driven. Money. Money. Money. Money. Money. Someone comes up with a PATENTABLE idea and then its all about safety and what's good for the little people who can't take care of themselves.

Manufacturers make money selling things that are still patented
Insurance companies get more reasons to deny a claim
In the scheme of things it doesn't do a damn thing to keep people safe because you can't idiot-proof the world.

 

[oldspark]

How about a tax rebate (either income, sales or property) to pay for the new stove? All of it, not just federal. This is an unfunded mandate. How are you going to enforce this? Video tape and spectral analysis of the offending plumes? No more burning you own wood? Instead, we'll have to peel back the plastic wrapper to warm our houses, like kids eating Lunchables?

I deal with electrical/fire alarm codes on a daily basis. Every 3 years I have to waste a weekend in a class room to talk about all the changes that will come with the new addidition to the electrical, fire and building codes. It was said to me 10 years ago and I finally believe it: The government doesn't give a damn about code enforcement. Individual inspectors can be very good at what they do, but in the end, the codes are product-driven. Money. Money. Money. Money. Money. Someone comes up with a PATENTABLE idea and then its all about safety and what's good for the little people who can't take care of themselves.

Manufacturers make money selling things that are still patented
Insurance companies get more reasons to deny a claim
In the scheme of things it doesn't do a damn thing to keep people safe because you can't idiot-proof the world.

That very well may be true but a lot of saftey rules are conceived in stupidity by the part of the public, people are unsafe and get hurt so "they"try to fix it when "they" do not have a clue what is going on, I see this all the time in my line of work.

 

[madrone]

Another Oregon DEQ update arrived. More public hearings on this. Most interesting thing here is the documents. Among other fascinating items, we learn that a central wood furnace is exempt, while outdoor boilers are not.

http://www.deq.state.or.us/aq/burning/woodstoves/heatSmartRules.htm

 

[madrone]

We also get our first look at a statewide burn ban not unlike some parts (all?) of WA. Phase I, you can still use your EPA II stove, but nothing else. Phase II, nobody burns. Exceptions made for low income, or sole source of heat.