Should I avoid a cat stove?

[Rowood]

Hi everyone,

This is my first post and I have not read through the forum exhaustively (athough I have tried to read as much as I can!) so please let me know if this is repetitive. I have a bit of a saga here and I want to make sure I am drawing the right conclusions from it. First, the data:

Chimney: Exterior 6" metal insulated +/-27 feet total (incl. interior stovepipe portion), 2 90 degree elbows
Wood: Mix of ash, birch, maple split in late winter and seasoned over spring/summer/fall, 3-6" splits (we don't have a moisture meter but it sounds pretty good on the knock test)
Previous wood stove (worked well): Regency Hampton H300 (1.7 cu. ft., non-cat)
More recent wood stove (disaster): VC Defiant 1975-CAT-C (3.2 cu. ft., cat)

The story:
We had the Hampton stove (it came with the house) for 4 seasons and put about 4 cords/year through it without any issues with the wood described above. We got about 6-8 hour burns with a full load and pretty good heat. If anything we had a little bit too much draft - fire didn't slow all the way down all the time when the primary air was closed. We replaced the Hampton with the Defiant for two reasons. First, we wanted a bit more heat to keep our propane baseboard system from kicking in overnight, as well as longer burns. Second, other folks in our family had great experiences with VC and sold us on the product.

It didn't go well. The Defiant gave us a lot of problems, and we had some scary repetitive catalyst overheats that filled our home with toxic smoke.

My question is: as we look for a replacement, should we avoid a cat stove in this setup with this wood? We don't have space to store wood 2 seasons and I can't stand to go through that process with the overheating and the toxic smoke again. I'm inclined to go back ton non-cat but I don't want to miss out on the efficiency, burn times etc. if I'm scared for no reason.

Really appreciate your thoughts.

 

[bholler]

Hi everyone,

This is my first post and I have not read through the forum exhaustively (athough I have tried to read as much as I can!) so please let me know if this is repetitive. I have a bit of a saga here and I want to make sure I am drawing the right conclusions from it. First, the data:

Chimney: Exterior 6" metal insulated +/-27 feet total (incl. interior stovepipe portion), 2 90 degree elbows
Wood: Mix of ash, birch, maple split in late winter and seasoned over spring/summer/fall, 3-6" splits (we don't have a moisture meter but it sounds pretty good on the knock test)
Previous wood stove (worked well): Regency Hampton H300 (1.7 cu. ft., non-cat)
More recent wood stove (disaster): VC Defiant 1975-CAT-C (3.2 cu. ft., cat)

The story:
We had the Hampton stove (it came with the house) for 4 seasons and put about 4 cords/year through it without any issues with the wood described above. We got about 6-8 hour burns with a full load and pretty good heat. If anything we had a little bit too much draft - fire didn't slow all the way down all the time when the primary air was closed. We replaced the Hampton with the Defiant for two reasons. First, we wanted a bit more heat to keep our propane baseboard system from kicking in overnight, as well as longer burns. Second, other folks in our family had great experiences with VC and sold us on the product.

It didn't go well. The Defiant would burn through a full load (down to embers in the bed) in about 2-3 hours with the cat running and everything shut down. It smoked up the house when top loading no matter how hot the fire was and how strong the draft appeared. Most worryingly, it had recurrent catalyst overheats that superheated the stove pipe and started to smoke the paint on the screws and the oval-round adapter on the flue collar. The overheats would occur after loading the stove and running it fully open (damper and air control) for a full hour until the chimney stopped smoking. My wife and son had to leave overnight at one point. We returned the stove to the dealer (thankfully they took it back).

I know some of this is undoubtedly user error, but I think some of it was a genuine mismatch between our setup and that Defiant. My question is: as we look for a replacement, should we avoid a cat stove in this setup with this wood? We don't have space to store wood 2 seasons and I can't stand to go through that process with the overheating and the toxic smoke again. I'm inclined to go back ton non-cat but I don't want to miss out on the efficiency, burn times etc. if I'm scared for no reason.

Really appreciate your thoughts.

Don't judge all cat stoves by the Vermont castings. They simply are temperamental stoves to run

 

[Highbeam]

I really like using my properly designed cat stove. Out of all the cat stoves on the market there are only a few that I would call properly or well designed.

 

[Kevin Weis]

With respect to the VC sounds like it wasn't set up right. A 6" chimney may be too small for the Defiant too. Try and match the stove to the chimney set up.

 

[GrumpyDad]

Hi everyone,

This is my first post and I have not read through the forum exhaustively (athough I have tried to read as much as I can!) so please let me know if this is repetitive. I have a bit of a saga here and I want to make sure I am drawing the right conclusions from it. First, the data:

Chimney: Exterior 6" metal insulated +/-27 feet total (incl. interior stovepipe portion), 2 90 degree elbows
Wood: Mix of ash, birch, maple split in late winter and seasoned over spring/summer/fall, 3-6" splits (we don't have a moisture meter but it sounds pretty good on the knock test)
Previous wood stove (worked well): Regency Hampton H300 (1.7 cu. ft., non-cat)
More recent wood stove (disaster): VC Defiant 1975-CAT-C (3.2 cu. ft., cat)

The story:
We had the Hampton stove (it came with the house) for 4 seasons and put about 4 cords/year through it without any issues with the wood described above. We got about 6-8 hour burns with a full load and pretty good heat. If anything we had a little bit too much draft - fire didn't slow all the way down all the time when the primary air was closed. We replaced the Hampton with the Defiant for two reasons. First, we wanted a bit more heat to keep our propane baseboard system from kicking in overnight, as well as longer burns. Second, other folks in our family had great experiences with VC and sold us on the product.

It didn't go well. The Defiant would burn through a full load (down to embers in the bed) in about 2-3 hours with the cat running and everything shut down. It smoked up the house when top loading no matter how hot the fire was and how strong the draft appeared. Most worryingly, it had recurrent catalyst overheats that superheated the stove pipe and started to smoke the paint on the screws and the oval-round adapter on the flue collar. The overheats would occur after loading the stove and running it fully open (damper and air control) for a full hour until the chimney stopped smoking. My wife and son had to leave overnight at one point. We returned the stove to the dealer (thankfully they took it back).

I know some of this is undoubtedly user error, but I think some of it was a genuine mismatch between our setup and that Defiant. My question is: as we look for a replacement, should we avoid a cat stove in this setup with this wood? We don't have space to store wood 2 seasons and I can't stand to go through that process with the overheating and the toxic smoke again. I'm inclined to go back ton non-cat but I don't want to miss out on the efficiency, burn times etc. if I'm scared for no reason.

Really appreciate your thoughts.

Posts like this scare me as a new VC owner
I dont have the cat , yet. But as you pointed out, the smoke that comes from the top is a bit much. Im not a patient person so, having to open the damper, open the throttle, crack the door a bit for a bit...then open it a bit more slowly but NEVER all the way, then load it, is not what I thought I was signing up for with this design. No biggy though.

I do not know why you would burn through that much wood in that short of a time. It really makes me suspect your control lever wasnt doing anything but remaining WIDE open or you some how have too much draft. It surely doesnt sound like excessive moisture in your wood, if anything it sounds like your wood burns HOT and FAST and is probably ultra dry. What were you burning in there? I have a mixture of stuff I have been tossing in mine. From pine, to oak, to cherry, to poplar, to maple...you name it.

I will say Im a bit worried about owning a VC. I dont like what it does to the glass, the top loading is finicky, temp control is seemingly random at times, the fact that I had to invoke the favor of 7 gods to understand the installation as did the dealer is concerning that there are other 'whoops' factors involved in this stove. But the biggest for me is the lack of flame. As in none.

 

[Rowood]

Posts like this scare me as a new VC owner
I dont have the cat , yet. But as you pointed out, the smoke that comes from the top is a bit much. Im not a patient person so, having to open the damper, open the throttle, crack the door a bit for a bit...then open it a bit more slowly but NEVER all the way, then load it, is not what I thought I was signing up for with this design. No biggy though.

I do not know why you would burn through that much wood in that short of a time. It really makes me suspect your control lever wasnt doing anything but remaining WIDE open or you some how have too much draft. It surely doesnt sound like excessive moisture in your wood, if anything it sounds like your wood burns HOT and FAST and is probably ultra dry. What were you burning in there? I have a mixture of stuff I have been tossing in mine. From pine, to oak, to cherry, to poplar, to maple...you name it.

I will say Im a bit worried about owning a VC. I dont like what it does to the glass, the top loading is finicky, temp control is seemingly random at times, the fact that I had to invoke the favor of 7 gods to understand the installation as did the dealer is concerning that there are other 'whoops' factors involved in this stove. But the biggest for me is the lack of flame. As in none.

Our wood is seasoned OK but shouldn't be too dry by a long shot, and our chimney is exterior - not where you would expect too much draft? We're burning ash, maple, birch mix in about 3-6" splits. Same wood we've always used! The VC was also a bad fit for us because we have very low tolerance for smoke in the house / need for excessive tinkering. We needed something that just works!

 

[Todd]

I really like my non cat Jotul F45. Easy to operate, nice flame show, glass always stays clean and with a 2.4 cu ft firebox has no problem achieving 8-12+ hour burn times.

Other stoves I would research and consider are the Pacific Energy line, Woodstock and Blaze King.

 

[bholler]

Our wood is seasoned OK but shouldn't be too dry by a long shot, and our chimney is exterior - not where you would expect too much draft? We're burning ash, maple, birch mix in about 3-6" splits. Same wood we've always used! The VC was also a bad fit for us becuase we have very low tolerance for smoke in the house / need for excessive tinkering. We needed something that just works!

Your experience is not uncommon with vc stoves at all honestly

 

[GrumpyDad]

I really like my non cat Jotul F45. Easy to operate, nice flame show, glass always stays clean and with a 2.4 cu ft firebox has no problem achieving 8-12+ hour burn times.

Other stoves I would research and consider are the Pacific Energy line, Woodstock and Blaze King.

kicking myself for picking the VC over the F45, especially when you mention flame show
I mean I guess Im not married to the VC. It would be a PITA but I could sell it. Not sure how though because I would be brutally honest about my experience to the perspective buyer, likely scaring away any buyer.

 

[begreen]

Not sure how though because I would be brutally honest about my experience to the perspective buyer, likely scaring away any buyer.

Let your wife sell the stove.

 

[GrumpyDad]

Let your wife sell the stove.

She would be more ruthless about it, yes you are correct

 

[Todd]

kicking myself for picking the VC over the F45, especially when you mention flame show
I mean I guess Im not married to the VC. It would be a PITA but I could sell it. Not sure how though because I would be brutally honest about my experience to the perspective buyer, likely scaring away any buyer.

Ha, I came real close to buying a VC Dauntless, really wanted to try a top loader but I came to my senses after reading so many VC maintenance nightmares and finicky operation reviews, just didn’t want to deal with it anymore, wanted a solid steel welded fire box with a nice looking cast iron surround. The F45 fit the bill!

Nothing wrong with being honest to perspective buyers, you could still get a good price for it. Even if you took a small loss, in the long run you’d probably be better off with a stove you really want.

 

[EatenByLimestone]

Somebody recommended PE. I would not recommend the vista/Super/ Summit/T line for a 27’ tall chimney. The stove breathes too easily.

 

[begreen]

Somebody recommended PE. I would not recommend the vista/Super/ Summit/T line for a 27’ tall chimney. The stove breathes too easily.

That can be addressed effectively with a key damper and if necessary, blocking off the boost air intake port. FWIW, many stoves may start showing fire control issues with a >25' flue.

 

[GrumpyDad]

Ha, I came real close to buying a VC Dauntless, really wanted to try a top loader but I came to my senses after reading so many VC maintenance nightmares and finicky operation reviews, just didn’t want to deal with it anymore, wanted a solid steel welded fire box with a nice looking cast iron surround. The F45 fit the bill!

Nothing wrong with being honest to perspective buyers, you could still get a good price for it. Even if you took a small loss, in the long run you’d probably be better off with a stove you really want.

Ill be stubborn and stick with this most likely though this winter and the next. This will be my criteria to keep it.
1. can my wife operate it, reliably without much guess work. (step 1 open damper, wait 1 minute step 2. add wood step 3. make sure STT is within this range step 4. check back in thirty minutes, if temp is this and you want higher do this, colder do that...and it happens)
2. stove reacts to adjustments made to air control
3. no issues with the stove that frustrated me repair wise, or required a service visit.
4. does it heat the room well and the room over sufficiently.

I do like the top loader, honestly. A little bit of smoke coming in isnt a big deal to me at all. DO NOT make the mistake of opening the top when damper is closed though else a little bit of smoke will be ALOT. It is a pain to have to wait, then crack it etc - so I dont know how much this will annoy me long term. I mean after all Im not loading it THAT much. If anything, Ive been opening it alot just so I can see the status of the wood (because you sure as hell cant tell through the glass!)

 

[begreen]

The Hampton H300 was a great stove. Easy to use and a good heater.

What do you want in a new stove? What is the order of priority?
Long Burn
Larger Capacity and more heat
Simple design
Aesthetics
Features (top load, etc.)
Ease of use
Low maintenance

 

[Kevin Weis]

As has been said the the VC's are draft needy stoves due to their down draft design. Also to note the cast flue exit piece on top of the stove has the exit partial blocked off by the casting. This has to really affect the draft pull I would think. This maybe just with the Intrepid?

 

[stoveliker]

I wonder where the "toxic smoke" of the OO was originating from.

Did the stove leak? Or was it (stove pipe) paint that was burning?

I don't see how a catalyst overheating would put smoke in the room.

 

[Rowood]

The Hampton H300 was a great stove. Easy to use and a good heater.

What do you want in a new stove? What is the order of priority?
Long Burn
Larger Capacity and more heat
Simple design
Aesthetics
Features (top load, etc.)
Ease of use
Low maintenance

I think the key things are in rough order:
Minimum smoke in the house
8-10 hour burn (easy overnight)
Ease of use and maintenance
Aesthetics (cast iron/enamel is ideal and the stove is the main focus of our living room - fire view is part of that too)

Features-wise I think we'd be happy either N-S front loading or side loading. The area we're heating directly is about 600 SF of a 1K SF first floor (2 story house). I'll probably post some more specific questions later about how we might move heat wround the house but that's another thread! We definitely miss the Hampton.

 

[jalmondale]

Cat stoves vary in usability just like non-cats - have you looked at Woodstock stoves? The cat in my Fireview is very simple to use/maintain (you can get to it from the top, so you don't even have to remove all the coals from the firebox to clean it), it's side loading, I have no issues with overnight burns, and little to no smoke on a reload - I happen to think it's also a beautiful stove and it's the focal point of my living room, but it's soapstone rather than enameled cast iron. Woodstock stoves tend to have a very unique look, although some of the steel stoves come in plain options that look a bit more traditional.

 

[Rowood]

Thanks for the input everyone!

I called around and here is what’s in stock nearby:

Lopi Evergreen
PE Alderlea T5 & T6
BK Ashford 30
Jotul F45, F55, F500 V3
Hearthstone Shelburne & Heritage

Seems like there’s something in there that will work - any thoughts? Is the T6/BK 30 too large for my space?

 

[EatenByLimestone]

Personally I think your chimney is too tall for the PE. BG believes a key damper will be enough to compensate. I run a key damper on a much smaller chimney. I've also plugged boost air in the past (but don't have it plugged now) trying to find the best performance. My chimney is 12 feet of Class A and singlewall straight up to a 7 foot ceiling. My elevation is just over 600'.

Its a good stove. It may work great.

 

[bholler]

Personally I think your chimney is too tall for the PE. BG believes a key damper will be enough to compensate. I run a key damper on a much smaller chimney. I've also plugged boost air in the past (but don't have it plugged now) trying to find the best performance. My chimney is 12 feet of Class A and singlewall straight up to a 7 foot ceiling. My elevation is just over 600'.

Its a good stove. It may work great.

It isn't too tall. It's only 27' with 2 90s. A damper or 2 can easily address that

 

[begreen]

Thanks for the input everyone!

Seems like there’s something in there that will work - any thoughts? Is the T6/BK 30 too large for my space?

I don't think so, especially when compared to the output of the Defiant.

It isn't too tall. It's only 27' with 2 90s. A damper or 2 can easily address that

Agreed.

 

[stoveliker]

I have 2 90s (and 50" of horizontal) followed by 27' up. I don't need a damper. I didn't measure the draft but if my BK 30 can run so low that it runs for 36 hrs on one load, the draft certainly is not too much, I think.

Of course every chimney system will behave different ...