Smoke spilling on reload of a new stove.

Caw

Minister of Fire
May 26, 2020
671
Massachusetts
See, this is why we ask the cat people! ;lol

General consensus does seem to be draft issues though. Definitely the place to start.
 

stoveliker

Minister of Fire
Nov 17, 2019
553
Eastern Long Island NY
See, this is why we ask the cat people! ;lol

General consensus does seem to be draft issues though. Definitely the place to start.
Said the dog person :p
 

Caw

Minister of Fire
May 26, 2020
671
Massachusetts
Did someone say dog? Gordon agrees that it's likely draft related.

He also ate one of my stair treads as a puppy <>. Im waiting to fix it until I sure he won't do it again. Maybe this summer.

83726.jpeg
 

stoveliker

Minister of Fire
Nov 17, 2019
553
Eastern Long Island NY
But bottomline: I agree with @Caw and Gordon: draft issues.

The system consists of 3 parts: the chimney, your stove, and your home. Assuming your stove is good, that leaves your home and your chimney. (Assumption because new stove, good brand, no expectation that's wrong -but I hope someone else with knowledge of this stove could chime in, baffle boards properly seated etc? I don't know your stove but there are folks that'll know this stove around here. @begreen is often very to the point in these things, but I don't know if he knows this stove),

Back to draft issues: Air flows into your home through leaks. It gets sucked out thru your stove by your chimney, in particular if you have heat in the stove (hot coals is enough), and by other appliances.

If you open a window in the same room as the stove, you should not have an issue getting enough make-up air in for what your chimney sucks out.

That leaves your chimney as the root cause. Hence my questions above.
 

Monty67

New Member
Feb 19, 2021
20
Vancouver island, BC
I did not read all above, but for now I'd refrain from considering a cat stove (but I'm not all the expert that @Caw makes me out to be...); they may have the same (or worse) draft problems. You have a new and good stove, you seem used to burning a certain way that worked, your flue height should be sufficient (unless your stove needs an 8" flue...?) - and while it might be possible to burn more efficient than your mode, it should in a good set up not lead to your smoke problem. So it's best to figure out what's wrong in your current set up.

If your flue is good (height, dia), then I concur with @moresnow about the 45's.

Other than that, have you checked the stove pipe and chimney (partial blockage)? (Have you changed wood supply recently?) I'm asking because such partial blockages can allow you to burn almost normally, but leave you just at the edge for when you open the door: the cross sectional area of the door is large, and to keep sufficient airflow INTO the stove for that full area (rather than smoky air coming out), it needs to flow fast through your flue - and a partial blockage may put you under that minimum, but may keep you in proper flow for fairly normal burning when the flow requirements are actually lower (given variability in weather and wood).
Is you cap clean or clogged (binoculars - or maybe you can't judge this from the ground, judging by your pic)?
I can’t imagine there is any blockage. The liner was just put in last week. The installer said it would help with draft if anything. I’m stopping in to talk to them now. I’ll see what they say.

THANKS ALL FOR THE RESPONSES.
 

Monty67

New Member
Feb 19, 2021
20
Vancouver island, BC
But bottomline: I agree with @Caw and Gordon: draft issues.

The system consists of 3 parts: the chimney, your stove, and your home. Assuming your stove is good, that leaves your home and your chimney. (Assumption because new stove, good brand, no expectation that's wrong -but I hope someone else with knowledge of this stove could chime in, baffle boards properly seated etc? I don't know your stove but there are folks that'll know this stove around here. @begreen is often very to the point in these things, but I don't know if he knows this stove),

Back to draft issues: Air flows into your home through leaks. It gets sucked out thru your stove by your chimney, in particular if you have heat in the stove (hot coals is enough), and by other appliances.

If you open a window in the same room as the stove, you should not have an issue getting enough make-up air in for what your chimney sucks out.

That leaves your chimney as the root cause. Hence my questions above.
Yes. I know we have negative air with the wood stove in the basement. So I open the exterior door prior to reloading. Honestly doesn’t seem to make a difference if the door is open or not. If there is smoke in the fire box then some gets in the room if the wood stove door is fully open.
 

begreen

Mooderator
Staff member
Nov 18, 2005
86,564
South Puget Sound, WA
Something is odd here. Check page 31 of the manual and be sure the vertical deflector is up as far as it can go.
 
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moresnow

Minister of Fire
Jan 13, 2015
1,667
Iowa
Yes. I know we have negative air with the wood stove in the basement. So I open the exterior door prior to reloading. Honestly doesn’t seem to make a difference if the door is open or not. If there is smoke in the fire box then some gets in the room if the wood stove door is fully open.
Have you read this thread yet? About post #11 it gets very relevant. Good luck with this.
Regency 2450 backdrafting | Hearth.com Forums Home
 
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savageactor7

Minister of Fire
Jan 25, 2008
3,747
CNY
As a last resort you could take off the chimney cap and note how the stove handles with the re-loads...

...that's too bad you have to put up with that smoke after all those years of trouble free burning.

Good luck with finding a solution and let us know.
 
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Monty67

New Member
Feb 19, 2021
20
Vancouver island, BC
The store owner is coming out on Monday to have a look. He seemed perplexed. Said he has had that happen with a regency once before and it was an issue with the liner they had installed He thought I should be reloading when the stove is hotter. Stove top more than the 300 or 350 I mentioned earlier. He thinks the top of flue is too cold if the stove is only 350. Sort of opposite to a lot of reasoning I had read on reloading on a bed of coals. I will let you know how it turns out.
 

MR. GLO

New Member
Jan 26, 2021
91
Massachusetts
if they open up the install and move the stove take plenty of photos and of the OAK inlet on the rear of the stove/bottom. Did your last stove have an OAK? Maybe disconnect the OAK and see if the spillage changes. Make sure all vents fans dryers gas appliances etc are off, doors open in rooms and see if you still get the spillage.
 

Monty67

New Member
Feb 19, 2021
20
Vancouver island, BC
He recommended trying with the oak disconnected. He said they don’t usually install them anymore but they attached this one because it was already there and we used it with our other stove without issue.
 

MR. GLO

New Member
Jan 26, 2021
91
Massachusetts
He recommended trying with the oak disconnected. He said they don’t usually install them anymore but they attached this one because it was already there and we used it with our other stove without issue.
Ok the manual had some type of damper near the OAK. I do not think that should be installed. verify. If he does take it apart I would take the time to install the the two 45's as the others have suggested. Discuss liner insulation if he pulls the liner. Cant wait to hear the results.
 

Monty67

New Member
Feb 19, 2021
20
Vancouver island, BC
Have you read this thread yet? About post #11 it gets very relevant. Good luck with this.
Regency 2450 backdrafting | Hearth.com Forums Home
Thanks for the link. Glad to know I’m not the only one having issues. Sounds similar to my situation. Like in post #11, I’ve tried opening the door with a hot fire going, thinking the draft would be strong at that point, and the flames came pouring out into the room. Scared me a bit when that happened, as I was used to the flames getting sucked into the top of the stove when the door is open.
 

bigealta

Member
May 22, 2010
87
Utah, NJ
I also just did your Flame Test, but my f400 is drawing air in at all areas (top of open door included). I agree with stoveliker, there has got to be some obstruction in the venting. Can u lift the top off your stove to check that any blocking plates are not miss aligned or any foreign substance are in there? Maybe the installers dropped a glove down the pipe when installing. If it were me i would take the interior pipe off and look at everything.

Another thought is when you open your door or window to help with Neg. pressure are you opening an Up Wind opening? If i open a Down wind window when my old crappy 1970's 118 clone with short flue in utah (hardly ever use it) is burning it will back draft and smoke out my house in no time. NW winds will make that stove back puff, all other winds are fine.
 

bigealta

Member
May 22, 2010
87
Utah, NJ
I'm betting that Smoke Deflector will be the problem (Page 31 on manual that begreen pointed out). It seems way to restrictive. The f400 has a similar restrictor but its about 1/2 the size with open space above and on both sides of it.
 

begreen

Mooderator
Staff member
Nov 18, 2005
86,564
South Puget Sound, WA
I'm betting that Smoke Deflector will be the problem (Page 31 on manual that begreen pointed out). It seems way to restrictive. The f400 has a similar restrictor but its about 1/2 the size with open space above and on both sides of it.
That is the first thing I would check. If it is in the bottom position raise it all the way up and save the dealer a trip. If it is in the up position then I would try burning a fire with it temporarily removed just for a test. If that makes a dramatic improvement then it could be that the deflector needs to have a little steeper angle bent into it. If no change then check the OAK for obstruction.
 

begreen

Mooderator
Staff member
Nov 18, 2005
86,564
South Puget Sound, WA
Yup same deal with my new Jotul f400 which replaced an old Jotul 3 from the 1980’s. The smoke pushes out on top at the hinge side of the door. The old Jotul 3 never did that. So I reload when coals are pretty low as they don’t produce too much smoke/fumes. Or I really prefer to just burn in full cycles. I restart cold almost every morning.
Both stoves have the exact same install. Single wall into clay lined flue with lots of masonry mass fireplace.
They are very different stoves. The F3CB breathes much easier than the F400. I had one on a 12' chimney and it was fine. The F400 has a much larger (2x?) wider door and a shallow firebox. It wants stronger draft. Ours was on a 20ft straight up flue system and it would spill smoke if you weren't careful when outside temps were >50º.
 

Monty67

New Member
Feb 19, 2021
20
Vancouver island, BC
I'm betting that Smoke Deflector will be the problem (Page 31 on manual that begreen pointed out). It seems way to restrictive. The f400 has a similar restrictor but its about 1/2 the size with open space above and on both sides of it.
When the stove cools off I will take a look at the deflector. It certainly seems like that would be a pretty restrictive obstacle for a stove that may not be breathing great. I have it running on inside air today. Seemed like it may be running a bit better maybe. But I reloaded on hot coals and still got smoke and a fire smell in the house. Which lasted a couple hours. I’m not really keen on modifying a brand new $2400 stove but I’d give it a shot.
 

Caw

Minister of Fire
May 26, 2020
671
Massachusetts
The smoke smell lasts a couple hours? Yikes... that's a long time. We all get fire smell a touch here and there in reloads but it rarely lasts more than a few minutes. You must be getting a ton of smoke.
 

bigealta

Member
May 22, 2010
87
Utah, NJ
Yeah the amount of smoke is troubling and the lighter flame showing the fire air/smoke pushing out of the stove would have me ripping everything apart.
 
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begreen

Mooderator
Staff member
Nov 18, 2005
86,564
South Puget Sound, WA
When the stove cools off I will take a look at the deflector. It certainly seems like that would be a pretty restrictive obstacle for a stove that may not be breathing great. I have it running on inside air today. Seemed like it may be running a bit better maybe. But I reloaded on hot coals and still got smoke and a fire smell in the house. Which lasted a couple hours. I’m not really keen on modifying a brand new $2400 stove but I’d give it a shot.
This is not a modification if the deflector is in the lowered position. It is adjustable as pointed out in the manual. If you had a very tall flue system and strong draft, then lowering the deflector might actually help tame the fire. As described, this case is the opposite. Did you check the OAK system for any obstruction like an outside flap or kink in the piping?
 

Monty67

New Member
Feb 19, 2021
20
Vancouver island, BC
This is not a modification if the deflector is in the lowered position. It is adjustable as pointed out in the manual. If you had a very tall flue system and strong draft, then lowering the deflector might actually help tame the fire. As described, this case is the opposite. Did you check the OAK system for any obstruction like an outside flap or kink in the piping?
I took the front off the pedestal as instructed by the dealer. So the bottom of the stove has full access to room air.

The deflector appears to be in the up position but there isn’t really much room for it to be down. The gap between the top of the baffle and the deflector is only between 1/8” and 3/16”. With a 5/8”gap at each end of the deflector, between the deflector and the side wall of the stove. Basically not much room for the stove to draw smoke and fumes IMO, but maybe this is normal.
A little rough math says the stove has roughly 6 to 6.5 square inches to draw smoke and fumes out.
 

Corey

Minister of Fire
Nov 19, 2005
2,541
Midwest
I'd be curious how (and how well) the horizontal section of your stove pipe is hooked to the 25' vertical run of liner.

Seems there would need to be a 90 degree T or elbow, but it would be inside the chimney and the installer would be trying to stab the horizontal section of black pipe through the masonry and hope it hits the T for a perfect seal. (Hope they did not get really crazy and think that the two pipes just 'pointed at each other' would suffice. *

If there are any cracks, gaps, loose caps on a T, or other spaces there, or possibly the black pipe and liner didn't actually mate up, the 25' liner could be drawing in air from the chimney, instead of draft from the stove.


* This reminds me of a situation years ago where I looked at a gas furnace with a nice stainless pipe leading up to a masonry chimney and a nice stainless cap on top of the chimney. We always thought it was lined, but I had to pull the top cap to do some weather sealing and found out that is exactly what it was... stainless pipe to the masonry chimney, stainless cap, an nothing but masonry in between!
 

Monty67

New Member
Feb 19, 2021
20
Vancouver island, BC
I'd be curious how (and how well) the horizontal section of your stove pipe is hooked to the 25' vertical run of liner.

Seems there would need to be a 90 degree T or elbow, but it would be inside the chimney and the installer would be trying to stab the horizontal section of black pipe through the masonry and hope it hits the T for a perfect seal. (Hope they did not get really crazy and think that the two pipes just 'pointed at each other' would suffice. *

If there are any cracks, gaps, loose caps on a T, or other spaces there, or possibly the black pipe and liner didn't actually mate up, the 25' liner could be drawing in air from the chimney, instead of draft from the stove.


* This reminds me of a situation years ago where I looked at a gas furnace with a nice stainless pipe leading up to a masonry chimney and a nice stainless cap on top of the chimney. We always thought it was lined, but I had to pull the top cap to do some weather sealing and found out that is exactly what it was... stainless pipe to the masonry chimney, stainless cap, an nothing but masonry in between!
The dealer did mention that he had one install about 4 years ago where a cap did come off the bottom of a T during install, and as you state the liner was drawing air from the chimney rather than the stove. Sounds like it would be something he will check.