Some smoke in stove is normal right?

[steveg_nh]

I do need to clean my vent. I read that people like the Gardus Sooteater. Yes? I assume it's as easy as doing something to prevent tons of ash from getting into the house (bag over vent pipe or something) and just running the sooteater up the vent to the top with a drill or something.

 

[SmokeyTheBear]

You can use whatever you want to to clean the vent, people have used soot eaters like you mention, some use lint eaters, there are also other methods. If you use a drill to power the device through the venting make certain it turns in the direction that will tighten the threads at the joints and not loosen them or you can get one stuck where it becomes a problem to get back out. People use various things to stop what fall down the pipe if you go up from inside and have a really tight seal all around inside the vent pipe not all that much comes down the pipe but you should be prepared for the worst. Do not forget to get the termination cap clean a lot of crud gets stuck up there.

 

[steveg_nh]

Do you mean run it in the direction so as to tighten the threads of the cleaners tubes so they don't come apart in the vent? You aren't talking about vent joints right? Mine is one continuous piece anyway with no cap on the vent pipe itself because it terminates under a full chimney cap on my 3 flu chimney stack.

But could a dirty vent cause what I'm seeing in the stove on Level 5? I think no but the advice is don't tune anything until all is clean. Right?

Now regarding reducing the opening on the auger what about my concern regarding the effect of that on all other heat settings, particularly at level 1 where the flame is already very small? Meaning if I make the opening smaller to cut down on the size of the flame on level 5 could I cause the flame to burn out at level 1?

 

[Wilbur Feral]

But could a dirty vent cause what I'm seeing in the stove on Level 5? I think no but the advice is don't tune anything until all is clean. Right?

A dirty vent can cause all manner of sooting and poor performance, and the higher the fuel feed rate the more likely it is to occur. As Smokey notes, it's a matter of oxygen flow, and if that oxygen once used has no place to go (insufficient vent volume due to being dirty) you will have an incomplete burn, sooting, and poor performance. Clean thoroughly - ENTIRE vent - then start from there. Anything else is essentially wasted effort.

And btw, I never use a powered vent brush - just manual. Seems to work fine and has for years now. Maybe I'll try powering with the drill one year, but has always just seemed like more to go wrong to me, with little additional benefit. Clean is clean...

 

[SmokeyTheBear]

Do you mean run it in the direction so as to tighten the threads of the cleaners tubes so they don't come apart in the vent? You aren't talking about vent joints right? Mine is one continuous piece anyway with no cap on the vent pipe itself because it terminates under a full chimney cap on my 3 flu chimney stack.

But could a dirty vent cause what I'm seeing in the stove on Level 5? I think no but the advice is don't tune anything until all is clean. Right?

Now regarding reducing the opening on the auger what about my concern regarding the effect of that on all other heat settings, particularly at level 1 where the flame is already very small? Meaning if I make the opening smaller to cut down on the size of the flame on level 5 could I cause the flame to burn out at level 1?

Yes make sure if you use a drill that it turns to tighten the treads of all of the joints in the brush system.

You do what is called for to get that flame under control in a clean system at level 5, you will very very likely be all set at level 1.

Wilbur Feral told you one thing that a dirty vent does.

I'll add another since the exhaust gases can't escape as fast as they normally could the air flow past the ignition system is reduced and it is possible that the ignition gets delayed and smoke and wood gas build up in the firebox and when ignition does occur you get a rapidly expanding shock wave (most folks call this an explosion) that can cause gasket-ed parts to part company and other not so nice things as well.

 

[chken]

Do you mean run it in the direction so as to tighten the threads of the cleaners tubes so they don't come apart in the vent? You aren't talking about vent joints right? Mine is one continuous piece anyway with no cap on the vent pipe itself because it terminates under a full chimney cap on my 3 flu chimney stack.

But could a dirty vent cause what I'm seeing in the stove on Level 5? I think no but the advice is don't tune anything until all is clean. Right?

Now regarding reducing the opening on the auger what about my concern regarding the effect of that on all other heat settings, particularly at level 1 where the flame is already very small? Meaning if I make the opening smaller to cut down on the size of the flame on level 5 could I cause the flame to burn out at level 1?

Smokey has you totally covered. As Wilber said, I don't use a power drill when running the lint eater, I just push it thru manually. Before you adjust the air-fuel settings, clean it to a pristine state. Seems obvious, but most people don't. Then adjust to your mfr recs with your manometer. Then adjust by eye to optimum. Just looking at your videos, P5 is just a tad too big and lazy a flame. Too many pellets for the amount of air, but of course, you've got to clean it first to get your true baseline. Could be smallish pellets feeding too fast.

Just to give you an example, I've gone from 7.7secs/12 secs for Blazers to 6.6secs/12secs for FSUs, because the FSUs are tiny pellets and feed far faster than the Blazers. There really is quite a variation.

 

[NYBurner]

Steve,
From your videos our flames look near identical. I suspect (as Smokey mentioned) that the stove is feeding more pellet than than I can get enough oxygen in. I am burning Barefoots and they are rumored (strongly) to feed a slight bit faster than a regular pellet. Ive noticed this going from Dry Creek/Green Supreme to the Barefoots….flame is much bigger and feeds through 40lbs slightly quicker.
That being the case…I suspect either an OAK to feed clean cold air will help, and / or ill have to close up my auger cover plate slightly. Im leaning towards the OAK fixing my problem though…the longer my fire burns at higher levels it will eventually "clean" itself up (to a point). So I suspect the chimney vent gets hotter pulling more draft…..sucking in more air.

 

[steveg_nh]

Thanks guys good info. I'm going to clean the vent today or tomorrow. What is the recommended brush system? Or does it really not matter that much? Not too much available locally anymore as everyone is moving on to spring supplies now. Thanks.

Update: Just went to Lowe's and picked up the Gardus LintEater and a pack of extensions. Get's me to 24' which should be good. I'll report back after the vent is cleaned. Hopefully I don't make too much of a mess!

 

[CleanFire]

re: mess, if you have an Ash Vac, you'll need it, if not, for us Shop Vac folks, this combo is working excellent here:

Shop-Vac 9035000 Ultra Web Cartridge Filter available on amazon.com

Wrapped with a Clorox brand Reusable Handi Wipe® cloth, held in place w/ velcro straps, or you can use twine, etc. to secure the HandiWipe - it preserves the Cartridge filter / acts as a pre-filter.. Available at most stores..

Hope the cleaning goes well!

 

[steveg_nh]

I did it tonight, with the Linteater. WOW! Great tool, easy too. But boy did I get a lot of junk out of the pipe. I wasn't expecting that. Fans sound good again, and flame looks good. Waiting for the warm up to finish, and I'll check draft, then grab another video on heat setting 5. I do have an ash vac too, the powersmith. Thank goodness. Stuck the vac up with the pipe and it got over 80% of what fell down...almost no mess in the fireplace. It took 27' of rod though, to get up and out of the cap at the top of the chimney...I had to run back out to Lowe's to get one more set of extensions...

 

[steveg_nh]

Boy do I feel silly now! I'm thinking this was all due to a dirty vent pipe as most of you thought it might be. This is my first year with the pellet stove, so I am learning. But after 1 hr and 15 minutes on high (level 5) this is now my flame...MUCH better. Clean and crisp, vibrant (not lazy) and no smoke! And the stove sounds good. It was sounding strange before, like it was groaning. Probably because it was having a hard time exhaling. Flame was choking so it was feeding faster than it was burning, causing a pile up I think.

Boy what a bozo I am! I didn't adjust any feed rates or anything at this point, and mag reading is -0.16. perfect!

What do you guys think? Thank you all so much (if you agree I'm in good shape now)

http://www.sixsyllables.com/webpics/flame5a.mp4

 

[chken]

Boy do I feel silly now! I'm thinking this was all due to a dirty vent pipe as most of you thought it might be. This is my first year with the pellet stove, so I am learning. But after 1 hr and 15 minutes on high (level 5) this is now my flame...MUCH better. Clean and crisp, vibrant (not lazy) and no smoke! And the stove sounds good. It was sounding strange before, like it was groaning. Probably because it was having a hard time exhaling. Flame was choking so it was feeding faster than it was burning, causing a pile up I think.

Boy what a bozo I am! I didn't adjust any feed rates or anything at this point, and mag reading is -0.16. perfect!

What do you guys think? Thank you all so much (if you agree I'm in good shape now)

http://www.sixsyllables.com/webpics/flame5a.mp4

Ah, much better, looks like your P4 video from before.

 

[steveg_nh]

Yup! Kind of what it was like originally. I guess I just forgot until I saw it again, that something changed... before the flame wasn't that much bigger 5 vs 4 but the fan ran a lot faster and higher which meant more heat output on 5. I'll have to keep an eye on it to see if the dirty vent really was it, but it sure seems like it.

One thing I do still hear though, is a groaning sound. I thought it was gone with the cleaning last night, but heard it again when the stove was running on low (Tstat not calling for heat). Maybe a bad bearing in one of fan motors? I'll post another video where you can hopefully hear it.

 

[Wilbur Feral]

In addition to cleaning the vent, you must pull the motors and clean them. Essentially anything in the air path must be cleaned, from the burnpot out. Have spare gasket ready!

May fix your groaning motors.

 

[SmokeyTheBear]

Groaning check the crud on the agitator/burn pot where the fingers go by or should be going by but might be scrapping instead.

 

[steveg_nh]

Thanks guys. I read about gaskets. Need to get some them before I pull the motors. The exhaust motor seems easy enough to get out, but the combustion seems a bit more complicated. Maybe I'm just missing something obvious.

The groaning is definitely the motors though, as you can hear it change as RPM changes. Here's a video where you can here the pitchy tone, more so than just air blowing...

http://www.sixsyllables.com/webpics/enviro_groaning.mp4

This is on low right now, as tstat isn't calling. It's not as pronounced when running higher, but it does come and go too, but mostly it's there. This started I'd say about 1 ton of pellets ago.

 

[steveg_nh]

I can only find a reference in the parts manual to a gasket for the combustion blower (exhaust), part 50-2380. No gasket listed for convection blower (the long one). Is there not one there?

And is it just me, or are all Enviro parts ridiculously expensive? $35 for this measly gasket? $135 for the agitator. Yikes! Makes me think I should have explored parts before deciding on an Enviro over a Harman...or is this common to all brands?

Thanks

 

[ohbix]

Sounds like bearings in one of the fans. You can determine which fan by starting the stove, then listening for the noise. The convection fan doesn't come on until the air pump turns off. Should be replaceable under warranty. No gasket for the convection fan, and you can remove the exhaust fan from the housing - no gasket there (on the FS M55).

 

[steveg_nh]

Thanks ohbix. Good info. Not sure if it's bearings. I want to clean them really well and then go from there, but that's kind of what I thought it was.

So you mention removing the exhaust fan from the housing so you don't have to deal with the gasket. I read about that. But you mention that's on the Free Standing, do you know if it applies to the M55 insert too?

I love knowing how this all works. Takes the worry away, as you can dig in on your own.

(PS: I had another thread going about my cleaning ritual, and some of the info in here and there have overlapped - hope that's ok, didn't mean to clutter up the forums)

 

[steveg_nh]

So just an update. Last night I took the exhaust blower out of the plenum (yup, no gasket) and cleaned it up. Definitely had some soot on it, but not as bad as I thought it would be. I also cleaned up the Proof of Fire switch. I had to remove the whole plate, removing the two screws didn't break the switch free. No issues with that gasket staying in tact. Plus, it let me clean up a little more in the exhaust tunnel/tube. Next I removed the combustion motor. That was fairly clean as well, more so than the exhaust fan. But spinning it manually, I could hear a scraping sound in the motor. I was thinking "this is my groaning sound when it's running."

I put it all back together (I took pictures of all wire connections before unplugging) and fired it up. The combustion fan kicks on for a quick second then shuts down while the stove ignites. I quickly heard my noise, then it was gone while the combustion fan was off. As soon as the comb fan turned on, I started hearing it again. Not as loud as before, but you could hear it, and when the stove got faster, the sounds did as well and faster. So combustion fan. Contacted the dealer and they already put a claim in with Enviro for me. They asked for labor too. If Enviro denies labor, sounds like they'll let me do it myself. I'd be kind of pissed at Enviro though, as this stove is only 4.5 months old and was like $4200...But I've read some horror stories.

They are, however to their credit, at least the dealer is trying, to also get my agitator bar replaced as well under warranty. They didn't feel it should have happened so quickly.

Thanks everyone for the help. One thing I know is that the stove is very clean right now. I'm sure much more so than it would be if I paid to have it cleaned too. I wonder though, after a bunch of times removing all this stuff, when the screw holes will start to strip out. It's always a fine line when tightening things between tight enough and maybe not tight enough (so give another little crank). LOL. Thanks again for helping me get everything squared away.

 

[ohbix]

Steve, labor will likely be covered. I purchased a demo M55 from a dealer who has since disappeared. Had fan trouble. Contacted Enviro, they gave me the contact info for the regional distributer. In turn, the rd gave me the name of a good dealer. Good dealer made the trip, replaced the fans, submitted the warranty claim. Fans and labor covered.

 

[steveg_nh]

I have a feeling they would cover labor too. Honestly though I'm ok with doing it. Convenience of not needing to be home for a service call. Easy to do.

One quick question - for those with an M55 insert, upon initial turn on does your combustion fan turn on for a quick sec then off again and stay off until it turns on for good? I think I remember that behavior before I touched it but not positive.

 

[steveg_nh]

Hey guys, one last question - anyone know if the combustion blower (exhaust) runs at a constant speed, regardless of heat level setting? It's obvious that the convection heater runs at different speeds. I'm just trying to be 100% sure the fan noise I'm hearing is coming from the convection heater, a noise which changes pitch and loudness with the speed of the motor. If I now the exhaust blower is constant, then I'm confident it really is the convection blower that is the problem. Would just hate to have diganosed it wrong and have the wrong fan replaced. Thanks.

 

[SmokeyTheBear]

Hey guys, one last question - anyone know if the combustion blower (exhaust) runs at a constant speed, regardless of heat level setting? It's obvious that the convection heater runs at different speeds. I'm just trying to be 100% sure the fan noise I'm hearing is coming from the convection heater, a noise which changes pitch and loudness with the speed of the motor. If I now the exhaust blower is constant, then I'm confident it really is the convection blower that is the problem. Would just hate to have diganosed it wrong and have the wrong fan replaced. Thanks.

It varies the combustion blower on your stove and a lot of others but not all stoves.

 

[steveg_nh]

Hmm. So hard to know for sure then. 99% sure it's convection blower. When I spun the exhaust blower by hand it was silent. The convection made some scratchy noise. Any way to know for sure? I guess I need to shut it down and listen again closely when it's igniting when combustion blower is the only one running.