Stove Installed - Clearance Wrong and Question

[sesro1978]

Hi All-

Thanks for the suggestions and feedback. I am going to contact the owner today and lay it out (thus far I have been dealing with the sales guy...honestly, I get the impression that the owner of the company doesn't know this is an issue) in terms of what the issue is along with our preference, which at this point is a refund, at least in part, on the install to help cover the cost of having to construct a heat shield, which we were not planning on doing. Quite honestly, if I would have known we were going to have to go with a heat shield in the end, we probably would have gone with the larger F3 but we specifically chose the F100 because we were under the impression that we were not going to need a heat shield if installed properly, which it wasn't.

I've given it some more thought as well as read the suggestions here and I'll not be switching to single-wall.

I'll post an update when I hear back from the owner.

 

[sesro1978]

Following up on this as I received a response from the dealer.

My email to the owner of the store said (pictures of measurements were attached to this message):
After firing the stove up last month for the first time, I noticed the wall running parallel to the side of the stove was very hot. Upon further inspection I found that the stove was installed too close to the wall by 1.5”. For this stove, with double-wall connector, which we have, Jotul requires 17”; the stove is installed with 15.5” clearance.

We specifically chose this model over another due of the fact that we didn’t need a wall shield which was based on the required clearances specified by Jotul. Now that the stove is installed and doesn’t meet Jotul's required clearances, we are going to need to mitigate/deal with the stove in its improperly installed configuration. This is not something we want to do, but something we are now forced to do.

We have exchanged emails over a couple of options that are not to our liking and/or was not a good idea. This is why I’m contacting you.

At this point, after reviewing the options to correct this mistake, we’d like a refund on the installation, in full or in part to help cover the cost of mitigating what can only be categorized as a safety issue.

This is what I received back several days later (from sales):
...that you wanted financial assistance or possibly full labor credit.

I am shocked that you think we have that kind of margin to work with here. We are not saying we would not help with the cost but your request for full credit did shock me.

The Metalbestous had to go where it is installed with the wall studs, your door, and corner.

One fix we have not discussed much is going to single wall pipe and shielding the first piece out of the wall. As Jotul said using single wall pipe has closer clearance (15") to the side and that would comply with your install. Again, single wall pipe has a 15" corner listing. I will be talking to Jotul today about this

Honestly, not sure how to respond to this and I'm a little rip-$%&* about it. Maybe I'm off base? How do margins figure into this - seems like an excuse or diversion...? I honestly don't give a rats-butt what their margins look like...

Also, I recall discussing single-wall and I was told (by this same person) that it was not a good idea and that we were better off with double-wall.

 

[Bootstrap]

I would choose option #3 - get rid of the wife....

Then install a nice decorative shield.

 

[bholler]

Following up on this as I received a response from the dealer.

My email to the owner of the store said (pictures of measurements were attached to this message):
After firing the stove up last month for the first time, I noticed the wall running parallel to the side of the stove was very hot. Upon further inspection I found that the stove was installed too close to the wall by 1.5”. For this stove, with double-wall connector, which we have, Jotul requires 17”; the stove is installed with 15.5” clearance.

We specifically chose this model over another due of the fact that we didn’t need a wall shield which was based on the required clearances specified by Jotul. Now that the stove is installed and doesn’t meet Jotul's required clearances, we are going to need to mitigate/deal with the stove in its improperly installed configuration. This is not something we want to do, but something we are now forced to do.

We have exchanged emails over a couple of options that are not to our liking and/or was not a good idea. This is why I’m contacting you.

At this point, after reviewing the options to correct this mistake, we’d like a refund on the installation, in full or in part to help cover the cost of mitigating what can only be categorized as a safety issue.

This is what I received back several days later (from sales):
...that you wanted financial assistance or possibly full labor credit.

I am shocked that you think we have that kind of margin to work with here. We are not saying we would not help with the cost but your request for full credit did shock me.

The Metalbestous had to go where it is installed with the wall studs, your door, and corner.

One fix we have not discussed much is going to single wall pipe and shielding the first piece out of the wall. As Jotul said using single wall pipe has closer clearance (15") to the side and that would comply with your install. Again, single wall pipe has a 15" corner listing. I will be talking to Jotul today about this

Honestly, not sure how to respond to this and I'm a little rip-$%&* about it. Maybe I'm off base? How do margins figure into this - seems like an excuse or diversion...? I honestly don't give a rats-butt what their margins look like...

Also, I recall discussing single-wall and I was told (by this same person) that it was not a good idea and that we were better off with double-wall.

My response to that would be with a letter from a lawyer. Their margins dont matter in the least. You paid them to do a safe professional install they did not. If they loose money on the job because of that it is on them not you.

 

[sesro1978]

My response to that would be with a letter from a lawyer. Their margins dont matter in the least. You paid them to do a safe professional install they did not. If they loose money on the job because of that it is on them not you.

I think at this point, I want them to pay for the wall shield that will be built to protect our wall.

Lawyer was my first thought on this...I'm also thinking of calling Jotul directly and letting them know that a dealer of theirs did not install the stove to the required clearance. The sales guy mentions that the chimney had to go where it is because of some obstacles (door, studs, etc.)... Guess what, that should have been mentioned when the installer was there - in my mind, he should have stopped work and said "hey look, we need to do 'x' because of 'y' issues." That was not done - I was there in my office, no questions were asked or issues raised.

 

[Ashful]

I don’t know how all lawyers would handle this, but the ones I have used for various issues typically charge a $750’ish retainer up front, and bill against that for all work until an issue is settled. The translation on that is, if this becomes a major issue, you’ll get your money’s worth. But if it’s just about a single simple letter, that’s going to be an awful expensive letter. I assume the total install labor was less than $1000, so you have to decide how much you want to spend on your principles, if you’re going to get a lawyer involved.

Of course, if you already have one on retainer, or have recently done work with one, it might be a freebie.

 

[sesro1978]

I don’t know how all lawyers would handle this, but the ones I have used for various issues typically charge a $750’ish retainer up front, and bill against that for all work until an issue is settled. The translation on that is, if this becomes a major issue, you’ll get your money’s worth. But if it’s just about a single simple letter, that’s going to be an awful expensive letter. I assume the total install labor was less than $1000, so you have to decide how much you want to spend on your principles, if you’re going to get a lawyer involved.

Of course, if you already have one on retainer, or have recently done work with one, it might be a freebie.

True and no, I don't make enough to have a lawyer on retainer. So probably no lawyers - I'm trying to get out of the mindset of me against them, but the more I correspond with these guys, the harder that is becoming.

 

[bholler]

I think at this point, I want them to pay for the wall shield that will be built to protect our wall.

Lawyer was my first thought on this...I'm also thinking of calling Jotul directly and letting them know that a dealer of theirs did not install the stove to the required clearance. The sales guy mentions that the chimney had to go where it is because of some obstacles (door, studs, etc.)... Guess what, that should have been mentioned when the installer was there - in my mind, he should have stopped work and said "hey look, we need to do 'x' because of 'y' issues." That was not done - I was there in my office, no questions were asked or issues raised.

There is almost always an option to be able to change framing to put the chimney where it needs to be. And if there isnt the answer is absolutly never to just install it without meeting the minimum clearances

 

[bholler]

I have had instances before where i have gone to lawers to have them write a letter on my behalf. It only cost $150 or so

 

[Ashful]

Good info, bholler. Dealing with wills and properties, I have had one on retainer for more than half of the last decade, so I’ve never had to cold-call one to ask for a letter like this. The one time I needed such a letter, a lawyer I already had on retainer to settle a property subdivision just wrote it for free.

To the OP, my feeling is that it’s probably just best to walk away from the installer. Even if you split the cost of the install labor, it’s pretty small money, so it’s really just about the principle of the whole thing. You’ll be happier, the quicker you just put this behind you. You’ll also likely be happier with whatever solution you cook up on your own, rather than whatever lowest-cost remedy the original installer wants to push you toward.

It sucks, but I’ve had the mistakes of others cost me far more, and it just ain’t worth the aggravation.

 

[bholler]

Good info, bholler. Dealing with wills and properties, I have had one on retainer for more than half of the last decade, so I’ve never had to cold-call one to ask for a letter like this. The one time I needed such a letter, a lawyer I already had on retainer to settle a property subdivision just wrote it for free.

To the OP, my feeling is that it’s probably just best to walk away from the installer. Even if you split the cost of the install labor, it’s pretty small money, so it’s really just about the principle of the whole thing. You’ll be happier, the quicker you just put this behind you. You’ll also likely be happier with whatever solution you cook up on your own, rather than whatever lowest-cost remedy the original installer wants to push you toward.

It sucks, but I’ve had the mistakes of others cost me far more, and it just ain’t worth the aggravation.

To me it wouldnt be about the money. It would be about the fact that they put my families lives at risk because they were to lazy to change the framing. Because of that there is no way i would just let this go.

 

[sesro1978]

To me it wouldnt be about the money. It would be about the fact that they put my families lives at risk because they were to lazy to change the framing. Because of that there is no way i would just let this go.

@Ashful - I hear you, but I'm with @bholler on this; these guys have put my family at risk and I'm not going to let this go. I feel like they have had more than enough time (this started over a month ago) and plenty of opportunities to make this right to my satisfaction.

 

[Ludlow]

If single wall falls within the listed clearances then that is all you are going to get out of a court case. That will be their defense that it wasnt improperly installed, merely the wrong connector was demanded by you.
Just have them put the best quality single wall connector on and a heat shield for it. Those pipe shields are barely noticeable. You could ask for the pipe cost difference to be refunded to you as well. You will get more heat output out of the single wall anyway. I dont know why people get stuck on double wall when it isnt necessary. Overkill.

 

[bholler]

If single wall falls within the listed clearances then that is all you are going to get out of a court case. That will be their defense that it wasnt improperly installed, merely the wrong connector was demanded by you.
Just have them put the best quality single wall connector on and a heat shield for it. Those pipe shields are barely noticeable. You could ask for the pipe cost difference to be refunded to you as well. You will get more heat output out of the single wall anyway. I dont know why people get stuck on double wall when it isnt necessary. Overkill.

The problem with that aregument is that they installed it incorrectly. It doesnt matter what the homowner demanded or asked for the stove needs to be installed according to its listing. I agree it probably isnt worth going to court over but i think it would be worth the cost of having a lawer write a letter to pressure them into fixing the problem at their cost.

 

[Ludlow]

The problem with that aregument is that they installed it incorrectly. It doesnt matter what the homowner demanded or asked for the stove needs to be installed according to its listing. I agree it probably isnt worth going to court over but i think it would be worth the cost of having a lawer write a letter to pressure them into fixing the problem at their cost.

True, but a simple switch of the connector and it is within the listed clearance. Mistakes happen every day. This one is easily fixed to code. That is what a judge will rule on.

 

[bholler]

True, but a simple switch of the connector and it is within the listed clearance. Mistakes happen every day. This one is easily fixed to code. That is what a judge will rule on.

Yes mistakes happen. But when the mistake was pointed out they should have been there within a day or 2 to fix it. I have made plenty of mistakes but i have always fixed them at my cost right away. If we are busy that may mean doing it in the evening or on the weekend. Yes it may be easily fixed but it wasnt.

 

[Ctwoodtick]

If it hasn’t happened already, I would contact Jotul and ask them for their guidance on how to rectify your situation safely and without compromising the original plan for your setup. I’d provide them with straightforward and concise version of your concerns and the response from the dealer. Basically “the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth”. Perhaps provide Jotul with the email correspondence you have had, so that they can see the efforts you have made and dealer’s response. Jotul just may give the dealer a call and things might become a lot smoother for you.

 

[Ashful]

If it hasn’t happened already, I would contact Jotul and ask them for their guidance on how to rectify your situation safely and without compromising the original plan for your setup.

Hah... good luck with that! Jøtul has made it very difficult for consumers to contact them. They are no Woodstock.

 

[Jotel me this]

Hah... good luck with that! Jøtul has made it very difficult for consumers to contact them. They are no Woodstock.

Jotul has a great product but im pretty sure no one has sat at the customer support desk since 1853

 

[Jotel me this]

Following up on this as I received a response from the dealer.

My email to the owner of the store said (pictures of measurements were attached to this message):
After firing the stove up last month for the first time, I noticed the wall running parallel to the side of the stove was very hot. Upon further inspection I found that the stove was installed too close to the wall by 1.5”. For this stove, with double-wall connector, which we have, Jotul requires 17”; the stove is installed with 15.5” clearance.

We specifically chose this model over another due of the fact that we didn’t need a wall shield which was based on the required clearances specified by Jotul. Now that the stove is installed and doesn’t meet Jotul's required clearances, we are going to need to mitigate/deal with the stove in its improperly installed configuration. This is not something we want to do, but something we are now forced to do.

We have exchanged emails over a couple of options that are not to our liking and/or was not a good idea. This is why I’m contacting you.

At this point, after reviewing the options to correct this mistake, we’d like a refund on the installation, in full or in part to help cover the cost of mitigating what can only be categorized as a safety issue.

This is what I received back several days later (from sales):
...that you wanted financial assistance or possibly full labor credit.

I am shocked that you think we have that kind of margin to work with here. We are not saying we would not help with the cost but your request for full credit did shock me.

The Metalbestous had to go where it is installed with the wall studs, your door, and corner.

One fix we have not discussed much is going to single wall pipe and shielding the first piece out of the wall. As Jotul said using single wall pipe has closer clearance (15") to the side and that would comply with your install. Again, single wall pipe has a 15" corner listing. I will be talking to Jotul today about this

Honestly, not sure how to respond to this and I'm a little rip-$%&* about it. Maybe I'm off base? How do margins figure into this - seems like an excuse or diversion...? I honestly don't give a rats-butt what their margins look like...

Also, I recall discussing single-wall and I was told (by this same person) that it was not a good idea and that we were better off with double-wall.

it really depends on how much you want to spend to make it right. its easy to say 'get a lawyer' but who's really going to do that? the cost would be more than fixing it yourself.

Margins? thats an excuse. makes no sense.

i dont understand how the single wall pipe makes it better. arent the distances further with single wall?

 

[PaulOinMA]

Rather than a lawyer …

Look into small claims court in your town and the limit you can sue him for. It's easy to fill out the paperwork yourself. Sue him for the full amount to make things right. Make it clear that it is a safety issue in your write-up that the small claims judge will review. If it's like here and where I lived in NJ, a copy of what you file will also be served to him by the sheriff's office. That may serve as an incentive to prompt him into action.

 

[robj80]

can always call the news station. Around here we have several that pretty much make a big stink and the contractor usually fixes the issue to the customers liking because the backlash from the bad publicity will be very damaging.

 

[Jotel me this]

definitely dont put the ball in their hands by becoming a 'jerk'. when you get upset, it allows them to use it against you and theyll act like the "innocent company doing everything in their power to make the jerk customer satisfied". doesnt look good for you.

just see what they say. pretty much the issue here is they installed something that 1 isnt safe and 2 isnt what you wanted.

whatever they do to fix it, get it in writing 1. the reason for the fix and 2. that their company performed such tasks because the initial install was not to code and 3. that the fixed install is now to code and have them sign it.

if its not on paper.. it NEVER happened.

 

[cjgoode]

If a single wall pipe gets you into the clearances needed, I would go with that and be done. Yes they should have done it right and informed you of this. But a single wall pipe is such a simple solution a court is not going to give you much more then the cost of a single wall pipe and chances of getting them to pay your legal fees is a second battle. I do not understand how a single wall pipe allows the stove body to be closer to the wall, but if the manufacturer says so my bet is the court would recommend that as the solution. A court will look for a compromise on both sides, chances of them giving you exactly what you want is slim. Most stoves run with a single wall stove pipe unless you need to reduce the clearance of the actual pipe to a combustible. When installing mine I was going to do double wall seemed safer, but the draft guy at woodland direct explained why that was not needed and I would get better room heating with a single wall. He was DOWN selling me.

 

[bholler]

it really depends on how much you want to spend to make it right. its easy to say 'get a lawyer' but who's really going to do that? the cost would be more than fixing it yourself.

Margins? thats an excuse. makes no sense.

i dont understand how the single wall pipe makes it better. arent the distances further with single wall?

I didnt say get a lawyer. I said have a lawyer send a letter. In my experience that doesnt cost much and can get results. As i said before to me it wouldnt be about the money.