Swindled or was rain to blame?

[SeanG]

Hi all,

So I took delivery of a 1/2 cord (supposedly, it was stacked a the back of a four door Tundra with a cab and I think it was stacked close to the roofline of the cap) this morning. I had my maul ready to split a few pieces to test them but got to talking with the nice gentleman who was unloading the wood. I forgot to split it until he left.

I split 10 pieces and not one of them was under 38%. Son of a &*#&@@=$! I wrote him back and told him how disappointed I was in him and how angry I was at myself for not testing the load before accepting delivery. I'm more angry with myself. He said the wood was split in 2014. I just don't believe him. We are in Virginia and this wood was uncovered for the past year and we did have constant rain for 10 days but I simply can't believe that dry wood would soak up that much water in such a short time.

He says he's going to come back and deliver some more wood for free but I do not believe him at all. I'll just chalk this up to user error and be much more vigilant next time.

I tested my moisture meter on some fresh splits of tulip poplar I had sitting out in the open for the past five months and they were at 24%. I just don' have that much of it hence the need to buy wood this season.

Anyway, is it possible that the wood, if bone dry, he says it was standing dead wood, could soak up enough moisture during this east coast deluge of the recent past to register 39% or was I swindled?

I think it is the latter but only time will tell if they dry out over the next week or so in the sun.

Sean

 

[jatoxico]

If you performed the same test on the poplar as the oak then you know the ans. Guess it just depends on how he represented the wood in the first place but 38% is essentially green in my book.

 

[TommyTally]

If the wood is punky, the rotted parts could soak up a lot of water. However, assuming it is not significantly decomposing wood, if tested on a freshly split face, it should not be that high from rain alone. You have to remember that some people split wood, stack it in a big pile with no sun and no airflow, and assume it will dry. I think it would take a decade for the wood at the bottom of those big piles to actually dry out.

 

[SeanG]

The wood isn't punky. Well maybe a few pieces. Seller swears that it was cut and split 2 years ago but I just don't believe him. Maybe like you say Tommy, he left it in a big heaping pile and these pieces never saw daylight or wind. I guess that's possible. We'll see if he is true to his word if he comes back in a couple of weeks. It's a small town and he seemed like a good guy but everyone has their own definition of "seasoned".

Live and learn but I'm just pissed as I knew what to do and it was such a preventable mistake.

Thanks for the listening and advising as always.

 

[jatoxico]

Seems a lot of sellers start the clock for seasoning time when they buck to length. Read and/or hear this often only to find it was split 3 mo ago. Sitting at the bottom of a big dark pile won't work either. Keep in mind he may truly believe it's seasoned. Been doing it that way for years and no one else complains. Moisture meter, what's that!?

 

[TreePointer]

So seller says wood was split in 2014? That could be December, 2014. Although that's not long enough for many species to season fully (some oak can take up to 3 years), firewood sellers in some states/municipalities are permitted to use the word "seasoned" if it were processed only six months prior.

Standing dead wood doesn't necessarily mean that it seasoned while standing. Smaller diameter branches will be ready to burn upon bucking and splitting, but for many species, large branches and lower trunk still will need to season just as if it had been a healthy living tree.

 

[maple1]

You should be able to tell that wood that measures 38% isn't dry just by looking at it & handling it - don't think a meter would be required for that. That's almost just-cut green.

Have some pics? Any checking in it at all?

 

[paul bunion]

Assume that the moisture was orignally distributed evenly across your piece of wood and that it dries from the outside in. Therefore it has to be drier towards the exterior because that is where it is leaving the wood. Measure the moisture from the edge to the center. If you find any spot where the moisture is higher closer to the edge than the interior you can be certain that the moisture came from an external source like rain since it would be impossible for it to be wetter than the interior. (Cracks and other imperfections can obviously cause different results.)

 

[DougA]

I've been splitting some black locust that was felled, cut and stacked in rounds 3 yrs ago but completely covered with a tarp. It's measuring well into the 30's. My mistake to fully tarp it and I now know.

Most wood operations that I know split the wood and have a conveyor that dumps the splits into a huge pile. Everything except the outside of the pile can't possibly get dry and you'd have the results you got.

 

[BlueRidgeMark]

Standing dead wood doesn't necessarily mean that it seasoned while standing. Smaller diameter branches will be ready to burn upon bucking and splitting, but for many species, large branches and lower trunk still will need to season just as if it had been a healthy living tree.

Exactly. I have dropped a bark-fallen-off tree and found the wood still very wet. Others have been bone dry. I don't know the whys of that, but I have seen it myself and have heard plenty of similar stories. There is a nice big oak on my commute route that I have been noticing for the last TEN YEARS. It was obviously deader than a doornail. I wanted that wood, but it wasn't where I could get to it. Last year we had a ton of rain and the whole thing is green now.

But most people assume that "standing dead" is the same thing as "bone dry".

I've been splitting some black locust that was felled, cut and stacked in rounds 3 yrs ago but completely covered with a tarp. It's measuring well into the 30's. My mistake to fully tarp it and I now know.

I just bucked and split some locust that was felled and piled up with some oak about 16 months ago. The logs had sprouts here and there, and the wood was sopping wet. I give locust two years, covered. (On the top, of course!)

 

[Fred Wright]

Rain won't affect MC inside a stick of firewood. The outside gets wet but that's all. Apparently the seller misrepresented the status of your load. That bites, and unfortunately, happens all too often.

 

[Isaac Carlson]

I have stacked oak inside for a friend who bought it in the fall as burning season started. It looked to be split long enough for the outside to dry, but I knew it was wet because it was almost as heavy as fresh cut oak. I commented on it and my friend said it would dry in the basement. The wood was all somewhat close to the stove, so it would dry some, but not completely. This year they are after slab wood, as is another neighbor down the road. The one down the road has 5 or 6 bundles of it out front.
I just split some oak yesterday and it is very wet. I didn't have any good place to put it yet, so it is in the shed. I will be restacking it in a better location as soon as I can.
I have more of the same oak on the trailer and just this morning I tried to bust a few with the hand swung splitter and it bounced right off. That is the toughest oak I have seen so far. Glad I have a hydraulic splitter.

 

[SeanG]

I don't think he intentionally tried to cheat me. I just don't think he understands wood. I have the impression that he is a gentleman farmer who fancies himself a woodsman. I think he is well off and just likes playing with his toys on his land like we all do but doesn't necessarily understand how to handle wood. Now, I'm making a huge ass assumption there but based on where he said he lives, the fact that he owns 238 acres, the way he carried himself and that he spends a lot of time in Jackson Hole with his wife's family I have a hunch I'm not too far off.

I was just really upset with myself for accepting the load untested and disappointed in him for claiming it was dry wood. I know that is the norm but it's still frustrating. He may actually think its dry like someone said above. Or he flat out lied and will move on to shark the next guy. I hope not.

I have told him how upset I am and sent pictures of the wood with my moisture meter engaged. He said he wants to make it right. I will have to wait and see about that. I'm going to measure the load on Sunday when I have the time and see if it measure up to a 1/2 cord as promised. I have a feeling it's light too. I think the reason most wood sellers sell by the truck load is that there is no way to quickly and accurately measure a pile of wood that has been unloaded from the back of a pickup.

Good to know my instincts were correct and that the rain didn't influence the moisture content inside the freshly split pieces I measured. There are a few drier pieces in there but they are smaller.

On the plus side it's almost all shagbark hickory with some cherry mixed in. I've got another half cord of cherry coming on Sunday that was split in January of this year so he says. I've explicitly told the guy that I'm testing the wood before I pay him. The cherry should be in the mid 20's if cared for properly as we had a very hot and dry summer here.

I sought out people that weren't selling oak in the hope that the wood would be less wet. I've also lined up two tons of Eco bricks from Tractor Supply to mix in with what I have scrounged and bought so I'll be fine this winter. I was just ticked off with how my first wood buying transaction went down. I'll update everyone if and when this guys gets back to me.

Cheers,

Sean

 

[Whitepine2]

Well you only got 1/2 a cord which isn't much if you think it's too wet let it dry some not all is lost and a lesson learned

 

[claydogg84]

While unfortunate for you, this is really not the sellers fault. He told you it was split in 2014, that very well may be true. Hickory will take 16+ months to season, generally. He never claimed what the moisture content percentage was. Selling firewood is a pain in the ass, because buyers are oblivious. Very few sellers actually stack their firewood (I know of 1), and those that do don't sell all that much. The vast majority will split the wood and convey it onto a large pile where it will sit for 8-12 months. Seasoned has no real term definition when it comes to wood - could be 6 months, or as high as 3 years, and they all use the same word regardless. You're on the right track with the bio bricks. Now just buy another 5 - 10 cord of the "seasoned" wood from the guy for the following years.

 

[BlueRidgeMark]

I don't think he intentionally tried to cheat me. I just don't think he understands wood.

That's probably true. Most folks don't really know what dry wood is.

 

[fire_man]

SeanG:

So how much is a 1/2 cord of good hardwood going for in VA?

 

[LocustPocust]

Selling firewood is a pain in the ass, because buyers are oblivious.

The reason why I don't sell firewood. I can hear it now "You shorted me 6 sticks" "You said it was seasoned but when I tried burning it after laying on the ground unstacked and uncovered for 6 months it didn't burn worth crap" "I've never cleaned my chimney and your Locust caused a chimney fire I never had any problems until now" blah blah I just don't want to deal with any of it.

 

[blades]

Add to locust pocust, it ain't no good cause its too light.

 

[BlueRidgeMark]

SeanG:

So how much is a 1/2 cord of good hardwood going for in VA?

Depends where you are. I don't see half cords for sale, but in northern Virginia (around DC), it's $200-$250 a cord for mixed hardwoods. People around here are terrified of pine. "It will burn your house down!" Seriously, you'll see CL ads for free pine that say, "for outdoor fires only!". Idiots.

Out where I live, it's about $100 - $150 per cord.

Of course, you'll always get the odd ad from somebody who thinks their stuff is gold. Once in a while I have seen $300 for "all oak", but I don't know if they get any takers. I saw one recently who wanted split & seasoned price for a bunch of rounds from a tree he had taken down.

 

[Newwave]

You got green wood. If you're ok with the quantity, count your blessings and consider this a lesson you can learn from.

As others have said, what wood sellers consider "seasoned" and what we here consider ready to burn are vastly different.

What I and many here do is procure our wood for three years burning. Stack it to dry and it's like money in the bank.

Once you're three years ahead your life is much easier.

Keep your chin up and good luck.

 

[owingsia]

I have some pine that is punky on the outside... I didnt cover it before out rain storm.... that stuff soaked up so much water it drips when I pick it up. The heart wood is still great though. I took a hatchet and removed the outside sap wood.... the heart wood on a fresh split even after the rain is 16-19%....

 

[BlueRidgeMark]

Add to locust pocust, it ain't no good cause its too light.

Are you saying that locust is too light and is not good firewood?

 

[SeanG]

UPDATE:

So the seller stopped by this morning and dropped off what looks like a sizable pile. We had agreed on 1/2 a cord and after it was stacked and measured it came out to be 51 cubic feet. I emailed him and told him and he said he would be back in two weeks to make it right. Well, low and behold he came back and dropped off more wood. I haven't stacked it yet as he just delivered it this morning. However, it looks like it's about 10-15 cubic feet so he was a man of his word and I really appreciate that.

I know it was my fault for not checking the wood when he dropped it off and I won't make that mistake again. However, in the end I got what I paid for quantity wise and this load was primarily dry pine which suits me fine as I can use it in late fall and save the BioBricks, dry cedar and my not so dry cherry and hickory to make up the difference.

I'll keep scrounging as I try to build to that magical three year surplus but space is tight and it will be a challenge. Given that this is my first season burning I know I am going to have to rely on bricks and subpar wood but next year will be better and the year after will be great if I can keep adding to the stacks.

Cheers,

Sean

PS - Here in Charlottesville, cords are selling on CL from $150-300 with most falling around $200. That's green wood though. I did see a post for Kiln dried oak for $300 + tax. Its a local lumber yard. I'm sure the wood is great but I'm spent what I am willing to pay for wood this season so I won't be buying any. If I hadn't bought the bricks I may have gone that route but the bricks are a guarantee so I feel better about my decision. I have changed my tactics and in the future will only buy wood in the late winter or early spring if the price is right. I now assume that all wood purchased from individuals will be green so will just look for good deals on quantity and species. Otherwise I'll keep scrounging.

 

[LocustPocust]

I now assume that all wood purchased from individuals will be green

Most is. Some are honest about it. Others think it's seasoned because it sat in a pile for 2 months at the woodlot. Others know it's not and sell it dripping wet and call it seasoned.

I'd say $225 and below for a cord is fair, truly seasoned yields a premium of course.