Technical HELP needed install gone wrong?

[Mike821]

Hello everyone! I just joined a few weeks ago. This site has so much valuable information and is a MUST for anyone whom has a stove.
OK.....so here is the scoop. I called a dealer in NY....live in NJ. My wife was set on the Napoleon 1402. We also are having the dealer install the stove.

I spoke to the dealer and mentioned my dimension's. 30"wide 26"high 18"deep He asked what is the measurements at 14"? I have 22" wide at 14". He said that they would cut out the wall and he would have a mason fill in the wall to accommodate the stove. As I figured it was a alteration that is possible as I am not an expert.

Installer comes to install the stove.

Liner install:

Liner 6" was snaked down a 9X12 flue but ran into a bend in the flue. He was unable to get past the bend so he went in behind the fireplace and poked a 6"x8" hole in the block and flue. He was able to move the liner down but also ran into a issue with the opening to the fireplace. The top was a little small so he went in behind and jack hammered out the brick/flue that needed to be removed to install the liner. He filled the openings in the back with fireplace insulation and that mortar rated for 3,300 deg....said it costs $200 a 5gal bucket. He put about a 1-1.5 inch layer over the fire blanket. (don't know if this is the right thing to do...????) Might I add it took the better part of seven hours to get the liner in. Still the liner was not all the way to the stove, just to the top of the firebox with no movement up and down...the pipe was lodged in the opening preventing movement. The installers said they would put a couplings on and this will be OK. I asked when it comes time to pull the stove would I have issues? Will I have to hire a installer to put the stove back in? They said it would not be a problem.

Wood stove:

So the installer takes the stove off the truck. It appeared strange that the installer did not measure before the job. The just started working on the install and then when it came down to installing the stove then they measured. (what have I got myself into I said) The owner of the company whom sold me the insert said this can be done...taking 1 1/4" off each side by jack hammering the firebox. The installer said he had no idea that this was what is needed. This stove is not going to work. So they loaded the stove on the truck and left.

OK....so now I am pissed beyond belief. I ordered wood...split some rounds that I had for years. I was ready for my first burn and it was a total let down. Not to mention that I had a fireplace that was hacked at and left with just a liner and not insert.

My main concern is safety. Is this installation sound like it is safe? I was a masons helper so I had some insight, but nothing in regard to the install of a insert. We neve had to alter a firebox as they were new construction.

Can someone review and give me some tips or suggestions. Can this 1402P be installed safely by altering the firebox? Is the holes in the back of the fireplace with fire blanket and high heat mortar safe? I told them to rebuild the portion that would be taken out with fire brick. That was my take.

I am in NJ.....I don't want a stove install that is not up to code. OH....no mention of a permit for this work. They just came and started installing. Is it needed in NJ? Anyone an installer from NJ or had experience installing a stove in NJ? Did you have to get a permit. Licence....is one needed to install a stove in NJ? I know I should have looked into this...but being a first time stove buyer and not having any knowledge I was not aware of this.

The installer said he would be back next week to complete the installation. Should I even let him in the door?

Any help would be a big help. My wife is ready to kill me now.

Thanks Mike

Pics.....

(broken link removed to http://picasaweb.google.com/mskowalik/20101110?authkey=Gv1sRgCPCYwbrel8Sz7gE&feat=directlink)

 

[ckarotka]

Sorry for the trouble you've had. Pictures would help greatly. Can you get some pics of all the work done and the stove area? I would be P%$#$# off too. I would think measuring for the stove would have come first also. Is the installer an employee or a sub-contractor?

 

[Mike821]

OK.....I have created a Picasso album to share the pics I have. Click on the link to view the pics. I also put the link in the original post. Thanks Mike

(broken link removed to http://picasaweb.google.com/mskowalik/20101110?authkey=Gv1sRgCPCYwbrel8Sz7gE&feat=directlink)

 

[begreen]

I can understand the cause for concerns. It looks like they came to the job completely unprepared. I suspect the real issue is that the salesperson or company never sent anyone out ahead to premeasure the job. The liner should have come all the way down, but we are only seeing part of the picture here. For instance, it would be good to know more about the flue to determine if this should have had an insulated liner. The method used is not kosher. Is this an interior or exterior chimney? Is there a tile liner in the chimney flue, or is this just raw brick all the way up? Do you know the interior dimensions of the flue?

 

[Mike821]

I can understand the cause for concerns. It looks like they came to the job completely unprepared. I suspect the real issue is that the salesperson or company never sent anyone out ahead to premeasure the job. The liner should have come all the way down, but we are only seeing part of the picture here. For instance, it would be good to know more about the flue to determine if this should have had an insulated liner. The method used is not kosher. Is this an interior or exterior chimney? Is there a tile liner in the chimney flue, or is this just raw brick all the way up? Do you know the interior dimensions of the flue?

The flue if I recall is 9X12 on the top. It is a masonry brick stack with 9x12 clay flue. (orange) The holes were made inside the house on the back of the masonry block into the flue to clear a path for the SS liner. No...the person whom I spoke with over the phone asked for my measurements. I gave him the mesurements to the "T". He said that is a good deal to remove, but it can be done.

I think in order for this to work the fire box would have to be rebuilt, but the question is will there be enogh room to push things back 2 1/2 inches?

Thanks for your time to post. Greatly appriciated!

 

[FixedGearFlyer]

I wouldn't be feeling warm and fuzzy, either.

I'm not a professional stove installer or chimney sweep, but that looks pretty shady to my eye.

Aside from the installation methods, I would think that your insurance company is going to require an installation to code with the signed permits as proof that everything is up to par. Ours did. If your installers didn't pull permits, I would demand that from them and require that the inspection be approved and finalized before I paid them.

 

[AngusMac]

This all looks pretty rough.
As mentioned the installer should have checked the job prior to installing.

7 hours work to get the liner down!?!

When I lowered down a liner, just the same as yours, I made a hole on the bottom, put some rope thru it and tied on a heavy-ish weight, then I lowered it from the top, and my brother was in the house crabbed the weight and rope, then guided it down thru the bends.

 

[begreen]

The biggest concern I have at this point is the metal right against the furnace cement. That does not look like it would ever pass inspection. Did they pull a permit to do this job?

The other question is about the fit. I'm sure you are asking yourself, what are they going to return with, jackhammer and vaseline?

 

[73blazer]

It almost doesn't look like anyone bothered to sweep that chimney prior to putting the liner in.

 

[cycloxer]

Sorry, but that is a clown-style hack job if I have ever seen one. I don't know why they can't get the liner all of the way down.

My advice is to go down to the store where you bought the stove and have a chat with the owner and salesman who sold you the stove. They should either make it right or I would take my money and business elsewhere.

I suggest they rip that liner out and figure out where it is getting hung up. Solve that problem and then put the liner back in and run it all of the way down to the top of the stove. You don't want any extra couplings. Tjhen they have to pull out that patch and fix the block wall the proper way with the same materials. Then you need to pick a stove that actually fits in your fireplace opening. A little trimming is okay, but you can't jack hammer out the whole sidewall.

 

[redwolf]

Live in Michigan and I was not required to pull a permit to install wood insert this year (napoleon 1402). I had just replaced an old insert. As far as I see from the the pitchers, it seems liner was pieced together. Liner should be going through chimney top, if any chipping was required it would be done there to fit liner into chimney properly. Also sealing liner at top of chimney, thus entire flu should be removed from inside of fireplace. Also depending on cost of liner should that liner be insulated? Mine was.

 

[Mike821]

It just feels like my existing fireplace was hacked up. Now I have a liner that is installed half a$$ed. My firebox is hacked and fire bricks were damaged. I have two holes in my flue...big holes(6"x12"). I have no idea what to do next. I am pissed and all I wanted to do is get a fireplace insert put in. The right insert done by professionals.

I am feeling now I will be stuck with a "F"ed up fireplace that is going to cost me major $$$ to repair.

Anyone know what type of insert would fit in a 30"wide 18"deep 26"high?

 

[holland_patrick]

take a look here...

(broken link removed)

page 23

 

[homebrewz]

I would guess that permits are probably handled by the township. You could call the building inspectors office and just casually ask if a permit is required for the installation of a wood burning appliance. The next phone call I would make is to your dealer/installer to find out when they plan to return, and what exactly they plan to do. Keep us posted.

 

[RonB]

I feel your pain. Hang in there and keep talking to us, it can't get any worse. Two red flags. 1). The dealer never came out to look at the setup for an install he was to do. 2). Took 7 hrs to drop the liner? Then they extend it with adjustable 90's because it is too short? I would have no confidence in anything they do now. You need a different dealer and installer.

 

[Mike821]

Thanks guys.....RonB the concern I have is if I get another dealer I have a hacked stack with a patch consiting of fire blanket and high temp patch. Is this right....I would tend to think it is a quick fix and needs some kind of masonry along with some of that high temp mortar. Additionaly I have that jack hammered section in my firebox. I don't know if any installer would touch this job knowing that they are walking into another installers mess. holland_patrick I looked at your link. Nice stove, but I did find that the Lopi Revere also fits in my firebox. It is a zero clearance stove, so I woud not have any issues with the stove being close or on the firebrick (so I think). On the positive side I have learned a great deal about stoves and installing due to this debockle.

I am now looking for suggestions. Any installers on this board who can give me some insight as to what next or the approch that I should take.

Thanks guys!

Mike

 

[begreen]

The installers are pretty busy at this time of the year. Hopefully one will catch this thread and comment soon.

 

[Mike821]

OK...well I am making some headway. The Lopi Republic 1750i fits in the existing box without any alterations. I made the suggestion to the dealer/installer. They are not a Lopi dealer, but he is working with me to obtain one..in fact I think he was able to do so. Now my question is, does the installer/dealer pull the permit? Will I be on the hook for anything that is done if I pull the permit? I think in that case I would be considered the general contractor. I just want to make sure I am not the one holding the bag upon inspection time. After all I am paying for a complete job passing local and state code. I have requested that the SS liner be reinstalled so that it comes all the way down to the stove. Additionally the patch on the back of the fireplace needs to be some sort of masonry and not just a fire blanket with some high heat fiber cement (forget the name).

In the time being I have been as I would call it, "woodin" and some call it scrounging for wood. Amazing how much wood is just laying on the side of the road. I found a half of a cord or what I think is Poplar or Black Locust and some oak. All seasoned except for some green oak that will be used for next year. Split and stack....

I need a bigger chain saw....LOL.

 

[moosetrek]

Sounds like they're trying to make it right - just stay on top of it and hopefully all will be well and warm soon!

 

[spencer186]

I think who you really need to call is a LAWYER! If they did that to my house I'd use the same attorney to sue them as I used to defend my temporary insanisty case for the assault charges put on me after beating them to a pulp. Good luck! Your'e a saint! 7 hrs for the liner? I did my full install including liner, stove, chimey cap, surround and running electric for the blower in less time and never did one previously.

 

[WOODplay]

When I worked for a heating and air dealer and we needed to get a liner down a chimney that had a lot of mortar squeezed in it. We would take a rope and tie a big 2.5" Pipe union on the end of it. Then pull it up and down the chimney quite briskly. It would hit those parts of the mortar and break them off. Then the liner would drop right down though the chimney without getting hung up. Those are some crazy pics. Good luck!

 

[Mike821]

All....I wanted to keep the company's name anonymous as I am a business owner myself. I gave this guy a fair shot. I was more than understanding and the expectations were that the owner would do what it takes to make me happy. To date he has not and I am left with a complete fire hazard in my house. No proof of insurance....no invoice....not licenced in NJ as mentioned when I talked to them. Like I said he has put my family in danger.

I have attached the photos of the hack job of a unfinished install. Don't be a victim as I was.

Any suggestions as to what I should do next.

 

[Mike821]

This tops it all.....I was just watching TV and a brick fell out of the fireplace. Talk about being pissed.

 

[Green Energy]

You should do some causal research with your local township or municipal authorities as to whether they have requirements for contractor licenses for this type of work. You should also check whether mechanical permits are required for wood stove installations. In my county, both of these are requirements.

If these are required in your locality, then you have further incentives to apply to your contractor. Make this right or get reported. If they are not licensed in NJ, then you should insist on them making you whole including the cost difference between the deal you struck with them and the cost of a licensed NJ contractor to provide a proper installation and professional repair of the hacked work.

If they won't go along, then you may want to consider legal advice. Another resource might be a consumer protection office at the local or state level. Sometimes the local media might have a consumer advocate reporter that does stories on these type of issues.