Think this will do.........

[soupy1957]

Think this will do what I need it to.................to read the temp of a double-wall Flue pipe?

http://www.amazon.com/Raytek-MT6-Mi...UTF8&s=automotive&qid=1279269827&sr=8-1-spell

The premise here (I have a temp gauge on the surface of the wood stove I own) is to not have to stick a probe-type reader in my flue, but to point-n-shoot.

I'm sure there will be those who will surmise that the temp this particular tool will read, will be the outer shell layer, but I'm looking for input from those who have used it, and can tell me if it truly will read the internal temp of the double-wall flue pipe.

-Soupy1957

 

[mayhem]

Its a surface temperature only instrument. If you want to read the temp of flue gasses you've got to stick a probe inside the flue and touch the gasses in there.

 

[soupy1957]

Agree mayhem..........I'm just wondering, based on the construction style of the double wall flue pipe, if there would be any transferance of the heat, giving me some sort of reasonable "ball park" reading on the flue pipe.

-Soupy1957

 

[smokinj]

Agree mayhem..........I'm just wondering, based on the construction style of the double wall flue pipe, if there would be any transferance of the heat, giving me some sort of reasonable "ball park" reading on the flue pipe.

-Soupy1957

If You could come up with a base line, then it would work..Not sure how you could do that unless you had a gauage reading the inside temp. gasses.

 

[mayhem]

I believe the purpose of double and triple wall pipe construction is to insulate the outer casing as much as possible from the heat of the inside pipe. There will likely be points at which the two walls are connected of course, otherwise you wouldn't have a structure, just a pair of tubes...but I cannot imagine that you're going to get any kind of a formula right for that sort of heat transference. The steel is slow to react to temperature deltas for example, so my the time the outer casing hits 110 degrees, the inner tube has been at 670 degrees for 20 minutes and the exhaust gases already peaked at 1100 degrees 6 minutes ago and you're on your way down because that piece of dry pine you tossed in there is already ashes.

I think the only way to go is to penetrate the pipe and measure the gases directly. I have to wonder if there might be some sort of remote sensor you can buy to do this, like the indoor weather stations with a wireless outdoor probe. Probably not, not at a reasonable price anyway.

Time for a new idea patent!

 

[soupy1957]

Here's a dynamic that I don't know and perhaps one of YOU does................with regard to the pipe that comes out of my roof..........is that ALSO "double walled" or is it a single walled pipe at that point in the chain? If it's "single wall" I suppose I could point the Laser at THAT. (?)

-Soupy1957

 

[mayhem]

Around here, building code calls for triple wall where the stovepipe penetrates any structure. Can't remember the offset from the wall/roof where the pipe goes through, I think its triple wall within 3-4 feet of the roof. My chimney is about 15 feet of double wall and then about that much triple wall to go through the roof and form the outside component and cap.

By the time the gases have reached the top of your chimney though, they've lost a considerable amount of energy and are nowhere near as hot as down at the flue.

I think the only way to meaningfully measure the temperature of your flue gasses is with a penetrating thermometer designed to do just that. Anything else is going to give you bad data.

Boy, am I Doctor No today or what?

 

[oldspark]

I'm confused, what kind of triple wall I thought you could just use the insulated pipe, the good stuff like you use out side, how is this triple wall made.

 

[soupy1957]

With three walls............

-Soupy1957

 

[oldspark]

With three walls............

-Soupy1957

Gee I wish I would have thought of that, cant be the old triple wall they used with the old prefab fireplaces. I will google it.

 

[stee6043]

I wouldn't concern yourself as much with terms like "class A" or "double/triple wall" as I would the classification used to certify the pipe - UL 103 and UL 103-HT. If they meet the proper UL standard for residential install you are good to go, regardless of how many walls it does or does not have....just look for the fancy sticker.

As for the original post - I think measuring the surface temp on the insulated pipe will never be a particularly accurate way to determine flue gas temp. Things like angle of the pipe, amount of draft, temp inside, temp outside and several other things are going to impact the relationship between flue gas temp and pipe surface temp. I can't imagine you'd ever get consistent results? Just my thoughts, however.

 

[oldspark]

I wouldn't concern yourself as much with terms like "class A" or "double/triple wall" as I would the classification used to certify the pipe - UL 103 and UL 103-HT. If they meet the proper UL standard for residential install you are good to go, regardless of how many walls it does or does not have....just look for the fancy sticker.

As for the original post - I think measuring the surface temp on the insulated pipe will never be a particularly accurate way to determine flue gas temp. Things like angle of the pipe, amount of draft, temp inside, temp outside and several other things are going to impact the relationship between flue gas temp and pipe surface temp. I can't imagine you'd ever get consistent results? Just my thoughts, however.

Thanks that makes more sense and I agree about the OP, surface temp on a pipe is only gonna work with single wall other wise the reading will not be any thing you can rely on.

 

[leaddog]

Think this will do what I need it to.................to read the temp of a double-wall Flue pipe?

http://www.amazon.com/Raytek-MT6-Mi...UTF8&s=automotive&qid=1279269827&sr=8-1-spell

The premise here (I have a temp gauge on the surface of the wood stove I own) is to not have to stick a probe-type reader in my flue, but to point-n-shoot.

I'm sure there will be those who will surmise that the temp this particular tool will read, will be the outer shell layer, but I'm looking for input from those who have used it, and can tell me if it truly will read the internal temp of the double-wall flue pipe.

-Soupy1957

No this won't work for what you want. I have one like it and it is a usefull tool but if you want to check flue temp I have found the best way is to buy a type K stainless probe and a PID or simular reader and you will have a very acurate reading. They can be had for less than the one above and all you need to do is drill a hole the size of the probe and stick it in the flue. Mine is a 4in long one with a 10ft leads. Been using it for over a year now and no prob.
leaddog

 

[soupy1957]

Having said all that we have about a probe, a heat sensor, and the potential issues involved, ..........perhaps this thread needs to go back to the fundamentals (for my OWN sake).

Since I'm not keen on increasing any potential leak points for smoke (understanding that gaskets or whatever, are used to seal the probe to the pipe), I'm thinking that there are folks out there in this forum that NEVER use a Flue Probe, and THEIR houses haven't burned down.

That being said, I guess we're back to the issue of how ELSE to ensure that you have a safe burn during the winter. Like ensuring that the flue is cleaned regularly (and there are a NUMBER of threads in here about that), like burning dry wood (and there are, again, many threads about that in here), and all the rest of the rules of the road.

Let's face it. Wood burning has its own inherent issues, and we all accept some level of "risk" when doing so. Whether it's a spark that flies out when you're stoking the fire, or spiders on the wood that freak out the wife and bite the grandkids, ......whatever it is........."we burn because we care" is my new motto. We care about the environment, we care about the price and availability of fuel oil; we care because.............oops.........I'm preaching.

-Soupy1957

 

[jebatty]

To better insure a safe burn during the winter measure with a surface reading thermometer, like the one you mention, a point on the stove that is black, the stove top for example. Or put a magnetic surface thermometer on your stove top to get a continuous reading so that at a glance you can tell stove top temperature and how your stove is operating. The magnetic thermometers for stoves are widely available and good enough to ensure safe burns and let you know when your stove is getting too hot. After your burn your stove for awhile you will get a sense of when it purrs, when it struggles, and when it is too hot. Keep it in the purring range, damp it down when too hot, and open the damper when it struggles (better yet, use better and dry wood).

 

[soupy1957]

Jebatty:The wood I burn, is superb! Dry (below 20%) and hard (Apple, Cherry, Maple, Hickory). I've never burned crap wood, or highly wet or resin-oozing wood. I never burn trash........etc....

The wood stove already has a magnetic thermometer, and I actively use my damper within the limits of its capability.

-Soupy1957

 

[mayhem]

Since I'm not keen on increasing any potential leak points for smoke (understanding that gaskets or whatever, are used to seal the probe to the pipe), I'm thinking that there are folks out there in this forum that NEVER use a Flue Probe, and THEIR houses haven't burned down.

That being said, I guess we're back to the issue of how ELSE to ensure that you have a safe burn during the winter. Like ensuring that the flue is cleaned regularly (and there are a NUMBER of threads in here about that), like burning dry wood (and there are, again, many threads about that in here), and all the rest of the rules of the road.

I've got 3 seasons on my present setup in my house without any chimney or house fires and no flue gas probe. I use a magnetic stovetop thermometer and simply have learned how my stove works.

Additionally I grew up with two woodstoves in the house (a very, very big, very old and drafty house..9000sq ft, 10' ceilings, etc) and we never had flue gas probes, jst used the stovetop ones. That house is also still standing. Use dry wood and watch the stove's behavior and you'll be fine. Clean your chimney annually.

 

[firefighterjake]

Having said all that we have about a probe, a heat sensor, and the potential issues involved, ..........perhaps this thread needs to go back to the fundamentals (for my OWN sake).

Since I'm not keen on increasing any potential leak points for smoke (understanding that gaskets or whatever, are used to seal the probe to the pipe), I'm thinking that there are folks out there in this forum that NEVER use a Flue Probe, and THEIR houses haven't burned down.

That being said, I guess we're back to the issue of how ELSE to ensure that you have a safe burn during the winter. Like ensuring that the flue is cleaned regularly (and there are a NUMBER of threads in here about that), like burning dry wood (and there are, again, many threads about that in here), and all the rest of the rules of the road.

Let's face it. Wood burning has its own inherent issues, and we all accept some level of "risk" when doing so. Whether it's a spark that flies out when you're stoking the fire, or spiders on the wood that freak out the wife and bite the grandkids, ......whatever it is........."we burn because we care" is my new motto. We care about the environment, we care about the price and availability of fuel oil; we care because.............oops.........I'm preaching.

-Soupy1957

I suppose you could say there is a potential leak point where the probe thermometer goes into the flue . . . then again you could say there is a potential leak point where you have the three (or more) screws securing the stove pipe sections as well . . . the likelihood of smoke (or anything) coming out of a probe hole is slim to none in a normal operating situation and I would guess if you have some backpuffing going on you will find smoke coming out of more areas than around the probe hole.

Safe burn . . . easy . . . for me it comes down to three things . . . two of which you mentioned.

1. Burn dry, seasoned wood . . . plain and simple . . . green wood = creosote. Dry wood = less creosote . . . not to mention more BTUs to keep you warm.

2. Check and clean your chimney. For newbies I would encourage folks to check a minimum of at least monthly . . . heck, I still check and clean monthly . . . then again when you have the tools and easy access like I do it's a quick and easy proposition. Clean chimneys = no large deposits of creosote to catch on fire.

3. Finally, know how your woodstove burns . . . learn how to control the heat . . . burn in the right temps. This is where having thermometers helps. Burn too cool in the stove and you will not achieve secondary combustion . . . burn too hot in your stove and you risk turning your stove into a very expensive coffee table. Burn too cool in the flue and you risk excessive creosote deposits . . . burn too hot in your flue and you risk starting a fire or damaging the flue. I am a big fan of both stove and flue thermometers . . . for me they help me control the stove burn . . . after awhile you will learn what your stove is doing by simply looking at it . . .

Thermometers are like the gauges in your car . . . technically you don't need a gas gauge or speedometer . . . but they sure are handy in letting you run your vehicle more efficiently and safely . . . and they keep you out of trouble. And just like stove thermometers . . . after awhile you may not need to constantly look at your speedometer to know roughly how fast you're going (or how hot you are burning), but it's always handy to have a gauge there to confirm what you believe is happening.

 

[oldspark]

Well I been burning wood for a long time and I do not need to know what the flue temp is either but I feel better if I know what it is plus it is a great tool for the wife to use, my car has a tach in it and I don't need it either (espically with a rev limiter) however when I push it once in a while I like to keep an eye on the tach.

 

[soupy1957]

FirefighterJake: That's not the first time you have mentioned checking/cleaning your flue "monthly." I do appreciate your contributions to my threads, .....I REALLY do! Coming, as you do, from the perspective of a fireman, as well as a wood burner, what you have to offer is invaluable.

Having said that, knowing that I respect your opinion, I'd like to ask...............when you are burning wood in the winter "24/7" like I intend, and like many of the folks in here do, I'm wondering about the timing of "cleaning and inspecting things" whilst trying to keep the house warm. Are we saying, "ok, let's throw the furnace on today" (the cardinal sin of wood burning, eh?) so that I can check and clean the chimney? Obviously some "cool down time" is needed for the stove, before I go cleaning anything.

I have learned, from experience, (albeit limited, thus far) that "my" stove, is not going to burn exactly the same as my neighbor's stove, so getting back to the initial intent of this thread, anything that can help me keep things in check is a good thing. I'm not totally AGAINST a probe in m Flue Pipe, but I don't see myself installing one. Rather I figure I'll be continuing in the theme of "learning my stove" and trying to find a good heat balance.

I'm figuring that I'm faced with replacing my Flue Pipe at some point down the road anyway, and perhaps at that time I may look into modifying it. I thought I'd like to have a damper in the Flue pipe, (and not just the one on the stove) for example, and perhaps I may do that when the time comes to replace the existing Flue Pipe. Perhaps at THAT time, I'll see if I can also get a section of Flue Pipe that has a thermometer built into it. Those work ok?

Here is an interesting quote that comes from another website:

"Do you need a flue pipe or stove thermometer?
We don't think so.

We don't recommend the use of flue pipe thermometers on modern wood stoves that have glass doors with airwash (so they stay fairly clear). Your best indication of how the fire is doing is by looking at it.

It turns out that there is no correct operating temperature for wood stoves because their output is modulated to provide enough heat for the conditions. So, in cold winter weather the temperature will be higher than in the fall when the heating load is lower.

The correspondence we see from visitors to woodheat.org convinces us that thermometers cause more confusion than clarity. People try to make their stove operation conform to the markings on the dial of a cheap thermometer or to the recommendations of someone who really doesn't know much about wood heating.

As we point out in our tips section, the fuel should be flaming brightly until it is reduced to coals, regardless of measured temperature. Bright flames mean the wood is never allowed to smolder. That looks after the low end of the temperature range.

At the high end, once a fire has reached full intensity after loading with the firebox full of flames, avoid letting it rage with the air control fully open for more than a few minutes. In very cold weather, you can run the stove hot, at say 2/3rds of max without doing any damage. That looks after the high end.

And that's all you need to know."



-Soupy1957

 

[jebatty]

This fall will be the start of our 21st wood stove heating season, 24/7 since 1997, and 24/4 from 1990-1997. Black stove pipe to ceiling and Class A above that look in about as good condition today as after the first fire. Clean chimney once per year; no intervening inspections. Very little build-up in chimney. Always burn dry wood and never let a fire smolder. Flue pipe surface, magnetic thermometer is very useful. A flaming brightly fire can range all the way from 300F to "sky the limit" on the thermometer. I keep the fire in the not to exceed 400F range, with 350F the ideal. Now, these are not absolutely accurate temperatures, but the guide when I know for sure that the fire is burning right. Your thermometer may evidence a purring stove at a different temperature. No guess work, wife tends the stove as well as I do; and a very efficient heating source for 20+ years of wood burning. Not to say that the same result cannot be attained without a thermometer, but it sure makes it easy to check on the stove. Don't even have to bend down to look at the glass; thermometer tells it all.

 

[firefighterjake]

[quote author="soupy1957" date="1279818660"]FirefighterJake: That's not the first time you have mentioned checking/cleaning your flue "monthly." I do appreciate your contributions to my threads, .....I REALLY do! Coming, as you do, from the perspective of a fireman, as well as a wood burner, what you have to offer is invaluable. Thanks . . . maybe I'm overly-cautious . . . or maybe I simply like my house and don't relish any thoughts of standing outside in middle of January in my boxers watching my house and stuff go up in flames when a simple 10-minute check and cleaning could have prevented a problem.

Having said that, knowing that I respect your opinion, I'd like to ask...............when you are burning wood in the winter "24/7" like I intend, and like many of the folks in here do, I'm wondering about the timing of "cleaning and inspecting things" whilst trying to keep the house warm. Are we saying, "ok, let's throw the furnace on today" (the cardinal sin of wood burning, eh?) so that I can check and clean the chimney? Obviously some "cool down time" is needed for the stove, before I go cleaning anything. In my case I do it the first weekend of the month . . . that Saturday morning I get up while the stove is down to coals and do the cleaning. Now it should be mentioned that in my case I have an outside chimney and can do this from the ground so it's a simple affair of undoing three screws and running the brush up through the chimney . . . other folks have to let their stoves cool a bit as the creosote will dump directly into their stove or they have to unhook their stove . . . a nice advantage for me is I simply wait for the high heat to die down and I can clean it. Usually the oil boiler continues its winter slumber.

I have learned, from experience, (albeit limited, thus far) that "my" stove, is not going to burn exactly the same as my neighbor's stove, so getting back to the initial intent of this thread, anything that can help me keep things in check is a good thing. I'm not totally AGAINST a probe in m Flue Pipe, but I don't see myself installing one. Rather I figure I'll be continuing in the theme of "learning my stove" and trying to find a good heat balance. It's entirely up to you . . . but I tell ya . . . it's wicked easy to install and once you have one you'll find yourself really liking it . . . truthfully I use my probe thermometer more than my stove top thermometer . . . it gives me an idea of when I can start closing down the air to achieve successful secondary combustion quickly and easily.

I'm figuring that I'm faced with replacing my Flue Pipe at some point down the road anyway, and perhaps at that time I may look into modifying it. I thought I'd like to have a damper in the Flue pipe, (and not just the one on the stove) for example, and perhaps I may do that when the time comes to replace the existing Flue Pipe. Perhaps at THAT time, I'll see if I can also get a section of Flue Pipe that has a thermometer built into it. Those work ok?

Here is an interesting quote that comes from another website:

"Do you need a flue pipe or stove thermometer?
We don't think so.

We don't recommend the use of flue pipe thermometers on modern wood stoves that have glass doors with airwash (so they stay fairly clear). Your best indication of how the fire is doing is by looking at it.

It turns out that there is no correct operating temperature for wood stoves because their output is modulated to provide enough heat for the conditions. So, in cold winter weather the temperature will be higher than in the fall when the heating load is lower.

. . .

I've read this bit before and agree to a point . . . I too watch the fire and in time you'll learn how your fire behaves and you'll be able to quickly tell if it needs more air, less air or what have you . . . and the clean glass is a guide post as well . . . but having a thermometer on the stove and flue just provides a person with more tools in their toolbox . . . and having more tools can be useful . . . especially to the newbie . . . as long as they also keep in mind as the article mentions that you shouldn't treat the numbers on the thermometer as the gospel . . . but rather guidelines.



-Soupy1957[/quote

 

[soupy1957]

Here's an interesting video related to the "install a damper in my Flue Pipe" statement I made...............If I can't find a section pre-manufactured, at least I can do it from a kit!




-Soupy1957

 

[leaddog]

Here's an interesting video related to the "install a damper in my Flue Pipe" statement I made...............If I can't find a section pre-manufactured, at least I can do it from a kit!




-Soupy1957

Installing a 3/16x4in probe would leave less area for smoke to excape than putting in that damper. Just drill a 3/16 hole and place the probe in it. You could even put sealent around it if you wanted to. I have one in my double wall pipe and it's connected to a PID, I gives me instant temp to the tenth of degree. It's been in for more than a year. It sets right on top of the stove and it's fun to watch.
leaddog