Thoughts on buying a used Insert

[Weston19]

Whats the general consensus on buying used Inserts? I currently have a fireplace in my home that never gets used as it take 6+ hours to heat up enough of the chimney to start adding heat into my basement and it pulls in so much cold air the rest of the house gets cold. Ive wanted to get an insert for a while now but its just too cost prohibitive to buy a brand new insert. I recently found a used wood insert on Facebook marketplace for a steal, its going to cost me more to buy the chimney liner cheap. It looks like its a Napolean Oakdale model but I'm not entirely sure when it was made or the specific model number. It looks like everything is there, and would be a fantastic upgrade for my home. It looks like its in relatively good condition for the age but I have not gone to see it in person yet. I did have the seller measure the unit and I checked my hearth, and I believe it will fit, but I will also double check that as well. Do inserts have a shelf life or can you burn them until they fail?

Also thanks for the add, I'm new here but I love wood fires wherever they occur!

 

[Weston19]

Picture of the insert

 

[John B]

Considering its basically a steel box, I wouldnt be too concerned. The biggest thing is to check to make sure its not warped anywhere as that would indicate an overfire. I'd also suggest downloading a manual for the stove so that you can make sure it is complete when you go to look at it. Move all of the levers and check that everything operates properly.

Expect that it hasn't been maintained and will probably need some refurbishment like new gaskets, baffles, cat, secondary tubes, fire brick etc depending on the type of stove. Im not familiar with that stove so I dont know for sure what type of stove it is. Basically assume you will be replacing consumables and doing a refurb on the unit. I wouldnt attempt to burn a used stove unless I had totally gone through it, there is just too much risk involved otherwise.

I've bought two houses over the years that have had existing wood stoves and in both cases I've had to go through and refurbish the existing stoves due to lack of maintenance by the previous owner (with the exception of a VC Encore in my current house that I could tell had very low hours since I'd already redone one of these at my old house and was an expert on it). The Encore I redid in my previous house was leaky and prone to overfiring, and as a novice wood burner it took me a season to realize I needed to fix it. What a night and day difference after redoing it, it ran like new when I was done. In my new house the Woodstock Fireview cat was crumbling and I could see missing cement and worn gaskets. Ran like new when I was done. Older stoves are great just expect to have to put some work into them.

 

[rwhite]

Depending on age and condition there should be no problem. I would lean toward buying a newer model that requires 6" chimney. I would also avoid slammer style inserts. My reasons for going 6" would be that it is a bit cheaper for the liner and if you ever upgrade to a newer stove you have a lot more options and you don't have to change the liner out. Throughly inspect the stove and look at all costs for installing. Just make sure your not stepping over a dollar to save a dime. I would recommend that you budget for and install an insulated liner with block off plate. The cost savings in a properly installed newer model are realized fairly quickly when you consider how much wood an older stove can burn through.

 

[Weston19]

Depending on age and condition there should be no problem. I would lean toward buying a newer model that requires 6" chimney. I would also avoid slammer style inserts. My reasons for going 6" would be that it is a bit cheaper for the liner and if you ever upgrade to a newer stove you have a lot more options and you don't have to change the liner out. Throughly inspect the stove and look at all costs for installing. Just make sure your not stepping over a dollar to save a dime. I would recommend that you budget for and install an insulated liner with block off plate. The cost savings in a properly installed newer model are realized fairly quickly when you consider how much wood an older stove can burn through.

I wont be buying or installing a slammer, although it was to my understanding that slammers were illegal 40 years ago and I don't think this unit is that old. I will probably get a block off plate, but my chimney is a twin flue internal chimney and I might not have enough room for insulated 6". I'm fairly sure I can get the non-insulated stuff in, but I will have some measuring to do. I don't plan to use the insert to primarily heat my home, I have hot water heat with NG, its just nice to have the option of using the fireplace, as right now its more or less non operational. We had nice ceramic glass bifold doors, but one of them cracked. They are asking 375$ for the insert and judging from the door glass, it looks like it didn't get a lot of use.

 

[Weston19]

Went and took a look at it today, and while I’m probably in over my head I’m a fast learner and can figure out what needs to be done to restore this to like new condition. That being said, it appears that everything is there and functional, and had little use, which is why it’s being sold. It’s the largest model Napoleon made and has the proper flue connection for a liner. Now I just need to find 4-5 guys to come and help me haul this thing to my house and into my basement. I’m going to browse the forums to see what I can learn in the mean time.

I do have a question that’s somewhat related as well. Since I have hot water heat, I was wondering if I can attach some coils of copper tubing and tie this into my hot water heating system. I presume it will get pretty hot on the back of the fire box but not as hot as it would if I had a water jacket exposed to open flames. I just figure it would be quick and easy to buy some copper tube and set that up as well so I can further increase how much heat I can pull out of the insert.

 

[jatoxico]

You're throwing up a few red flags. Heating from the basement can be a challenge. First off draft can be an issue and if you don't have a problem there an uninsulated basement can suck up all the heat. If possible I'd look for a free standing stove rather than an insert. As far as stealing heat using a coil and tying into your hot water I'd drop that idea.

If you have a fireplace or thimble in the basement can you feel cold air coming down when not in use, does the basement smell of smoke or creosote, is this an exterior chimney?

 

[Weston19]

Not planning on heating the entire house from the basement, the hot water heat does a good job of that. As far as the chimney, it’s a masonary chimney and it’s not on the exterior. The house was built in 57 and is two stories. The chimney is clay lined. The basement is insulated so that’s not an issue either. The chimney currently has a dampener which we leave closed, but opening it up you don’t feel any cold air comming down and when we had fires in the hearth it drafted extremely well. I do plan on using a liner anyways, I will need a WETT certification to add the coverage to my insurance.

 

[jatoxico]

That sounds promising. Realize some folks come with unrealistic expectations and inherent problems. Still would consider a freestander if possible. Cheaper and more effective heaters, This coming from an insert owner BTW.

 

[weatherguy]

That does look to be in good shape and used little. I wouldn't try your hot water idea. It's possible but do a search and you'll find some threads on that. For now I would just enjoy it the way you originally planned.

 

[Weston19]

That sounds promising. Realize some folks come with unrealistic expectations and inherent problems. Still would consider a freestander if possible. Cheaper and more effective heaters, This coming from an insert owner BTW.

To be clear, the primary reason I’m buying this insert is it’s cheaper and safer than a 1000$ set of ceramic glass doors. I’m paying 375$ for the insert and the liner kit will cost me 5-600$. I can do the installation, and I would like to have a functional fireplace once again. A free standing stove would definitely be cheaper and better, but I also have dogs and at least with an insert I can use a fire screen to keep them away from the insert.

Basically, my expectations for this insert are to have safe fires in my home and have it insured and do a better job than the open hearth or hearth with ceramic glass doors at throwing off some heat. But really it’s a safety factor, an insert will be much safer than an open hearth even with ceramic doors. I just want to learn about inserts and if there’s any kind of shelf life or service life, and if anybody knows anything about this model of insert. I’m getting tired of the wife putting on YouTube videos of fires when I’m perfectly capable of doing the real thing. I totally understand the people with unrealistic expectations, so I wanted to get that out of the way. And with a brand new installation outside of my budget, a used insert that works for 1/3 the price is a hard bargain to beat. I’m a CNC machinist and quite capable with just about anything mechanical, but I also realize when I’m outside my area of expertise and know when and where to seek experienced help.

Once I get this thing home I’ll be able to post up some more pictures of the actual insert. I figure it’s a late 80’s to 2000’s model based on the blower fans and variable speed adjuster. The firebox is very deep, it’s defiantely the larger model. The owner said it’s rated to heat up to 3000 sqft, although that sounds a little ridiculous. Everything works, the air intakes can be connected to the exterior if desired, and I didn’t see any warped steel inside the firebox. We might remove the firebrick to help with the weight, I just don’t want to take apart a puzzle I can’t put back together. I will keep you updated. It will be a bear to get down the stairs, luckily it’s a straight shot and I have some long 2x10’s.

 

[Weston19]

Small update, I purchased the insert and got it into my basement. It appears it was certified in 1985 so it’s an older model, and made in Ontario. It might be a Canadian only deal. The firebox is massive, 4 cubic feet but that’s not taking out the baffle and the smoke shelf, so probably closer to 3 once that volume is calculated out. I will need to replace the door gasket and replace a couple of the side firebricks, as they are cracked, but the firebrick on the bottom appears to be in good condition. It has both a flue dampener and air valve to control the fire which is nice and the blowers and variable speed control all works fine. Being a pre EPA unit there’s no cat, but has a baffle with firebrick. I will take some more pictures when I’m done at work.

 

[Weston19]

Ok, I’ve hit a bit of a snag. I don’t know how I missed this, maybe because the hearth is in a corner, but it connects to the chimney through a cinderblock wall with what I’m assuming to be a thimble, the passageway is all brick. The upper half brick portion of the hearth is purely decorative, I can look over the top of the wall into the top of the hearth. I’m figuring it’s going to be nearly impossible to get a flex liner through the thimble and then down the throat. I could remove the brick wall, break out the top of the hearth, install a stainless thimble to the chimney and then attach the stove using a flex liner or solid pipe to the thimble, but now I’m outside my area of understanding. Does an insert need to be completely encase in brick to be legal? I could brick over the installation after I have the through wall complete but this seems to be shortsighted. Could I brick up past the thimble and install a 1/4 steel plate as a cap to the hearth? I think I might just have to call a chimney guy out to take a look and tell me what to do next. This installation seems to be very strange compared to other more conventional installations. In reality i could even remove the entire hearth and install a free standing wood stove into the corner and vent it into the chimney again using a thimble, but I do like having the brick hearth. Maybe some pictures will help.

 

[bholler]

Ok, I’ve hit a bit of a snag. I don’t know how I missed this, maybe because the hearth is in a corner, but it connects to the chimney through a cinderblock wall with what I’m assuming to be a thimble, the passageway is all brick. The upper half brick portion of the hearth is purely decorative, I can look over the top of the wall into the top of the hearth. I’m figuring it’s going to be nearly impossible to get a flex liner through the thimble and then down the throat. I could remove the brick wall, break out the top of the hearth, install a stainless thimble to the chimney and then attach the stove using a flex liner or solid pipe to the thimble, but now I’m outside my area of understanding. Does an insert need to be completely encase in brick to be legal? I could brick over the installation after I have the through wall complete but this seems to be shortsighted. Could I brick up past the thimble and install a 1/4 steel plate as a cap to the hearth? I think I might just have to call a chimney guy out to take a look and tell me what to do next. This installation seems to be very strange compared to other more conventional installations. In reality i could even remove the entire hearth and install a free standing wood stove into the corner and vent it into the chimney again using a thimble, but I do like having the brick hearth. Maybe some pictures will help.

Yeah we need pics to give you much input.

 

[Weston19]

Back with pictures as promised. I’m going to split my reply into two sections just so I can explain each picture. I had originally though the chimney terminated into my hearth as is typical of many homes. However the upper section of the brick mantle upon my surprise is a facade, and removing the ceiling tiles revealed what actually is behind the hearth. This makes things both easier and more complicated depending on what I think I can do.
Also, since the glass doors are tempered and my house is old, I don’t use the hearth at all.

 

[Weston19]

So I popped off the ceiling tiles and took a look as to what the situation was. I must say I’m fairly embarrassed that I incorrectly assumed the chimney terminated into the hearth. What I see when I look is to me, well scary. This house was my childhood home and we use to, years ago have fire in this hearth with this arrangement. What I didn’t account for is the block wall dividing the chimney from the hearth. I guess I figured the block wall terminated at the chimney, but that was incorrect. So obviously now I have a problem. There is no way I can snake a flex liner through the throat of the hearth and then through an 8” block wall and another 4” into the chimney no matter how much brick I break out of the hearth. However it occurred to me that a much simpler solution was now available. I could break out the throat of the hearth and the masonary connecter going through the block wall. This would make a large opening in the top of my hearth which I could then connect my insert through. I could also break out a “window” in the block wall, and then frame the window with angle iron just for support, so that I only have to go trough the 4” or so of brick in the chimney, which I could easily do with one of those t-connectors that come with the flexible vent kits. Now, im not entirely sure if having the top of the insert open to room air is ok, which is my first concern. My next concern is, or rather question, is because this is inside the house, would it be better to run double wall stove pipe from the insert up to the thimble or t going into the chimney, or should I just use flex liner here as well? I figure a stove pipe would be more ridged and safer, but it’s not stainless. I suppose I could use stainless here, but would I need double wall or is single ok? All 3 sides are non-combustibles, which makes me inclined to believe I can just run single wall stainless. I was somewhat concerned that having the top of the insert open to the floor joists, even if they are far enough away, was somewhat concerning. I could fabricate a 3/16 steel plate to sit 2” above the thimble to act as a heat shield. As far as the brick is concerned, it won’t be going back. I think if all pans out, I will fabricate a steel door in place of the brick. This will give me access to the thimble and insert when I want to sweep my chimney and I can keep an eye on basically the situation back there if I need to.

I know, it’s a lot to post, which is why I was contemplating just calling out a WETT inspector to take a look at what I have and let me know where to go from here. What I don’t want to happen is to rip out all this masonary only to find out that I can’t do it that way and now I can’t use the masonary hearth either. I don’t want to rip the entire thing out of I can help it.

 

[Weston19]

Also, I have the tag from the insert, but I have no idea what it really even means. I know that Wolf Steel is Napoleon, but googling model numbers results in no hits. It was certified in 1985, so it’s old. It has intake dampeners on each side, which lead into air wash ports for the front glass, a baffle with two firebricks in it, and a flue dampener that more or less is a flat plate that bypasses the baffle. It has an 8” flue collar and the PO had a 6” reducer right on the collar. Not sure if the manufacture approved this, as I was reading some do. The blowers work, the speed control works, pretty good deal as long as I can get it insured.

 

[MAD MARK]

Napoleon Deluxe Insert.

https://www.napoleonproducts.com/downloads/fireplaces/manuals/obsolete/nfi-c-nfi-d-manual.pdf

 

[bholler]

I don't know Canadian codes but I am pretty sure you are going to have to tear that whole mess out

 

[HomeinPA]

I'm sure even Canadian codes and the old manufacturer's instructions require the insert to go into a properly built firebox and as you've properly determined.....this one ain't. Seriously though....tear the entire thing out, put in a proper thimble, install an insulated stainless liner, sell the insert and make at least 50 bucks on it and go by yourself a nice freestanding wood stove. If your dogs have half a brain between them they'll know not to stick their nose or any other body part on a hot stove. Hell, even our cat figured that out and he's brainless.

 

[moresnow]

Opportunity for a solution! Start over. Ditch the boat anchor insert and get a decent freestander installed properly. Common sense. Be safe. Enjoy.

 

[Weston19]

Turns out my cousin is licensed to do WETT inspections, so when he gets some time he’s going to come out and take a look at what’s going on and how I should proceed. I would really like to use the insert, I realize a wood stove is technically better but I don’t care much for the advantages it has over the insert to begin with. In the mean time I tore out the block facade wall to get better a better look at the throat. The chimney is on the other side of the block wall, how it passes through I have no idea.

 

[Easy Livin’ 3000]

Turns out my cousin is licensed to do WETT inspections, so when he gets some time he’s going to come out and take a look at what’s going on and how I should proceed. I would really like to use the insert, I realize a wood stove is technically better but I don’t care much for the advantages it has over the insert to begin with. In the mean time I tore out the block facade wall to get better a better look at the throat. The chimney is on the other side of the block wall, how it passes through I have no idea.

Wow, it sure did get complicated for you. I hope you have the gumption to see this through, I'm not sure I would.

I personally like the idea you've been offered about the free standing stove. Your dogs will be fine. Never read or heard of pets being hurt by a stove. Despite your efforts and direction to this point, it'll almost certainly be a better outcome using a freestander rather than insert.

I did the opposite, bought a stove then went with an insert when I ran out of gumption to do any more fireplace surgery. The stove found another happy home this winter and our insert is in it's 4th season.

Still would prefer a freestander if I could have had one for reasonable cost and effort.