To clean out or not to clean out

[CptJera]

• Hi, everyone. Newbie on the forums here and a 'shocked' newbie when it comes to creosote. Scanned through the threads and didn't see this topic.
• We've bought an old homestead with a limestone chimney circa 1908 or so. No damper was ever in place.
• One important note here: opposite the back wall of the living room "fire box" is the bedroom with another fireplace mirroring the living room. That wall separates the two fireboxes and tapers off to a shared chimney exiting through attic and (fortunately) steel roof.
• Pic 1 [original.jpg] is its 'clean and pristine' condition prior to us moving in and installing a small Buck stove into the living room fireplace. The bedroom fireplace is sealed up with plywood and aluminum tape. Looks awful but is only temporary. The Buck produces heat well, burns seemingly well and circulates that heat very well in the living space. We've burned probably 2 cords since November of seasoned oak, maple, hickory and ash. Seasoned as in tops remaining from logging operation in 2012 that I've cut up and split since fall. (Still need to buy a moisture meter to determine HOW seasoned, right?)
• Pic 2 [plate.jpg] is a steel plate I installed about smoke ledge height inside the chimney; used a hammer drill and TapCons into the limestone blocks, then boiler mastic to seal the edges well. A 18" piece of black pipe (with round damper installed just above the stove ) runs from the top of the stove through the plate and extends about 6" above the plate into the chimney. The chimney has another plate and cap mounted on the top.
• I've noticed more and more that far too much smoke enters the living room when I open the door, even with good fire and what should be good draft. (Damper full open) A very fine layer of dust/ash seems to cover everything in the house no matter how often we dust or vacuum. I've decided to install single wall black pipe top to bottom through that plate to improve the draft and hopefully get much more smoke/ash outside where it belongs.
• Today, I removed the stove and pulled down the short section of pipe from the lower plate. WOW! See pic 3 [now.jpg]. MAJOR stage 3 creosote from about 2' above pipe tip to the very top of chimney.
• 
  
• So my questions: I still intend to install the 24 gauge 6" single wall black pipe running back through that lower plate and connect it to a cap at the top. No way can I afford a SS liner outside that and double-wall pipe is out as well. Should I be concerned at all with all that creosote? Can it ignite simply from radiant heat from the pipe inside the chimney? Your recommendations?
• Thanks to all in advance for your help and advice!

Jera Anderson
"Edens Garden" Eidson, TN

 

[begreen]

Welcome. First thing, get that chimney professionally cleaned. You don't want creosote in with the liner. Yes it can ignite from the radiant heat of the liner. Second, the liner must be stainless steel, no exceptions. Black pipe is not permitted in the chimney as a liner.

There's a good chance that some of the wood is not fully seasoned. That may be part of the creosote source. Oak needs a couple years after it is split to season usually.

 

[CptJera]

Welcome. First thing, get that chimney professionally cleaned. You don't want creosote in with the liner. Yes it can ignite from the radiant heat of the liner. Second, the liner must be stainless steel, no exceptions. . Black pipe is not permitted in the chimney as a liner.

Okay, I do understand about having it cleaned, likely with a chain flail, chemicals or a combination? I don't understand about the 'no black pipe'. Is this simply a longevity issue -even if there are no 90ºs and is brush cleaned often- or is there some other reason? Thanks for the prompt response, begreen.

 

[begreen]

I'm not a sweep, hopefully one will chime in about the best methods.

Black pipe will rust out quite quickly. When this happens smoke and carbon monoxide can seep into the room. CO is deadly and odorless. If it backdrafted into the bedroom the results could be fatal. It just isn't worth the gamble.

 

[CptJera]

I'm not a sweep, hopefully one will chime in about the best methods.

Black pipe will rust out quite quickly. When this happens smoke and carbon monoxide can seep into the room. CO is deadly and odorless. If it backdrafted into the bedroom the results could be fatal. It just isn't worth the gamble.

My friend, you put it like that and with my not having considered the CO backdraft into the bedroom part, 6" rigid stainless after a thorough professional cleaning is in order. My thanks. Anyone want to buy an `06 Harley Trike???

 

[CptJera]

Okay, next approach. Seems like I ought to utilize all the resources that I already own so here's what we have. We own another much bigger Buck stove than the model 21 we're currently using trying to heat this old house. That ought to eliminate my need to damp off and choke back the air supply so severely to slow the overnight burn. Getting up twice a night to refuel is getting old quick! Not to mention it's apparent I've got a handy-dandy creosote hi-volume factory burning semi-seasoned wood that way! Next, I have nearly 20' of Dura-vent double-wall stainless pipe at another location. Dimensionally, it ought to fit inside our chimney flue. I'd just need to recut the hole in the plate inserted above the fireplace to accommodate the 45º transition out of the top of the bigger Buck. Would using this double-wall Dura-vent inside the flue eliminate the need to remove all that stage 3 creosote? Again, many thanks!

 

[Clarkbug]

Pretty sure dura-vent isnt listed to be installed in a chimney as a liner. And the creosote has to go no matter what path you take here.

 

[bholler]

Would using this double-wall Dura-vent inside the flue eliminate the need to remove all that stage 3 creosote?

No you need to use a proper liner and insulate it and you absolutely need to remove the creosote. And yeah either a chain or cable flail is the way to do it it will also bring down allot of the old parge coat i am sure

 

[CptJera]

Waiting patiently -my fault for getting into this boat- for a sweep to call me back. Meanwhile I've found the following:

1. Liner (x5)[URL='http://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B009KUXH60/ref=ox_sc_act_title_7?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=A21ZRRVETX2T64'] Fireside Chimney Supply 316L Rigid Chimney Liner & Componets (All Fuels) - 6in x 48in [/URL]
   
2. Elbow (x2) Fireside Chimney Supply 316Ti Flex Elbow - 45 Deg Flex - 6in
3. Adapter (x1) Fireside Chimney Supply Appliance Adapter - 6in
4. Cap (x1) The Forever Cap CCSS6R 6-Inch Stainless Steel Slip in Round Chimney Cap
5. Insulation Fireside Chimney Supply FireFlex Insulation Wrap 1/2in - 3in to 6in liners (25ft)

Am I on the right track with these materials? Am I missing anything? Thanks, folks. I truly appreciate the assistance.

 

[CptJera]

Does anyone have an opinion on using 6" flex vs. 6" rigid wall, both with 1/4" of insulation? Chimney's in center of the house so 1/4" should be enough?For example, it fairly obvious that the flex would require more frequent cleaning simply due to the 'ridges' inside the liner that might catch creosote. On the other hand, if I insulate it well and am meticulous about the moisture content, overnight damping technique and judicious use of the spray-on or powder Meeco's product, I could probably prevent much of it in the first place, right? Thanks again, everyone.

 

[Jager]

I would bite the bullet and stop trying to save money. Your chimney is probably porous. It needs a liner to be safe. Poured or stainless steel.

Years ago, as a young man, I stood upon the roof of the house I grew up in and helped my dad position a section of stove pipe down the chimney. That was his "liner." Some number of years after that, on a bitterly cold February day... his house burned down.

Wood heat is one of the most wonderful, satisfying things in the world. But do it right, or don't do it.

 

[CptJera]

I would bite the bullet and stop trying to save money. Your chimney is probably porous. It needs a liner to be safe. Poured or stainless steel.

Years ago, as a young man, I stood upon the roof of the house I grew up in and helped my dad position a section of stove pipe down the chimney. That was his "liner." Some number of years after that, on a bitterly cold February day... his house burned down.

Wood heat is one of the most wonderful, satisfying things in the world. But do it right, or don't do it.

Absolutely no question about that, Jeff! Safety is now my number one consideration. My biggest issue now is deciding rigid stainless over flexible stainless, then how to best maintain it. While the initial cost of whichever choice is a huge consideration, longevity and levels of future maintenance weighs most heavily. I am NOT getting any younger and the "cash flow" is going to dry up to close to zero in very short order. Much appreciation for the input, Jeff.

 

[Jo191145]

While your at it you may want to rethink the plywood covering the bedroom fireplace that is sharing that flue. Even with a proper liner installed I wouldn't feel comfortable with using wood. Without the liner it's downright dangerous.

 

[CptJera]

While your at it you may want to rethink the plywood covering the bedroom fireplace that is sharing that flue. Even with a proper liner installed I wouldn't feel comfortable with using wood. Without the liner it's downright dangerous.

No doubt! Already working up a 3/16 sheet steel cover for it in the shop. Having wire-welder issues, as always! By the way, Jager, checking out your site at http://www.jeffreyhughes.net. Looks like you and I may be Brothers from another mother! "Freshly" retired computer geek with lots of similar interests, it would seem.

 

[Jager]

By the way, Jager, checking out your site at http://www.jeffreyhughes.net. Looks like you and I may be Brothers from another mother! "Freshly" retired computer geek with lots of similar interests, it would seem.

I knew you were a good guy, Captain! ;-)

Congrats on the retirement. And good luck with the install!

 

[CptJera]

I knew you were a good guy, Captain! ;-)

Congrats on the retirement. And good luck with the install!

Thanks, Jeff! God's own chariot!http://www.thehomeremedy.com/trike/

 

[brant2000]

It may have been said (I didn't read through all the posts that clearly), but I think you want to be looking at a flexible chimney liner, rather than the 4' sectional pieces you identified above. I wouldn't even know how you would install something like that and wouldn't want to run the risk of having any of the joints come loose/dislocate during a cleaning. You want one continuous piece all the way to the top. This should also be much less expensive than the 4' sections you identified.

 

[bholler]

We have used rigid plenty of times it is a good liner but it is a pita to install i would go with heavy wall flex liner personally. And use the 1/2" insulation 1/4" is not enough to give you zero clearance to combustibles on the outside of the chimney. Which in a house that old i am sure you have wood in contact with the chimney somewhere

 

[begreen]

Had rigid in my house until the fireplace was removed. It was easy to install, just pop riveting as it went down. It's hard to beat the toughness of rigid. It survived two earthquakes and actually held the top of the chimney from falling over in the second quake.

 

[bholler]

It was easy to install, just pop riveting as it went down. It's hard to beat the toughness of rigid.

I am sorry but i have installed both types many times and rigid is not that easy it is not that bad but flex is so much easier. And as far as durability heavy wall is right there with rigid for durability. I agree that rigid is a good liner and as long as your chimney is straight it is a good option but there are defiantly some down sides. Insulating it is a pain to because you cant do the whole thing at ones and many do not allow using pour in insulation. We almost never use rigid anymore coal is really the only time we will use it.

 

[CptJera]

http://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/...act_title_3?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=A19E3NFZ6XVKVT I only just occurred to me that putting together 4' sections while holding the weight up of the lower pieces already 'hanging' down the chimney would be a major PITA. No to mention tying the layers of insulation together before lowering it down. No, the 316 flex noted above is the way I'll go. I cannot begin to imagine the cost of installing rigid due to the scaffolding set up on the 8/12 pitch roof alone to give two people access to the top of my chimney. Images of house here - http://www.thehomeremedy.com/fireplace I'd also note the chimney does indeed touch wood in the attic. However, I'd also note that it's constructed of solid hand-hewn limestone blocks. Still use 1/2" because of the wood, beholler?

 

[begreen]

I did it by myself several years ago by using a cinch strap to hold it in place while lowering then riveting. Yes, it was more work, but bulletproof. No insulation then, this was before Hearth.com started.

 

[bholler]

Still use 1/2" because of the wood, beholler?

To meet code yes you need to use 1/2" if there is wood in contact with the outside of the chimney.

 

[bholler]

I did it by myself several years ago by using a cinch strap to hold it in place while lowering then riveting. Yes, it was more work, but bulletproof. No insulation then, this was before Hearth.com started.

That is typically how we do it and like i said it is a good liner but heavy flex is just about the same when it comes to durability and much easier to work with. Again i am in no way saying don't use rigid i just don't think it is worth the extra trouble personally.

 

[CptJera]

Much thanks for the advice, fellers. Looks like 2 Ply 316 flex with 1/2" insulation will be the choice. Now, if I can just convince our local sweep/installer to expedite. I think I can see smoke coming from the electric meter. Actually, since they're all digital now, gotta change that. My electric meter looks like the national debt tally, the numbers are rolling by so fast. Gotta get with the folks at Woodstock and get that Ideal Steel Hybrid ordered. Little Buck 21 gots to go.