Too green to burn?

[Burnin up VT]

So I'm curious and looking for a bit of input. I'm up in VT (I guess that might be obvious from my nick and am in the middle of building a new home. I had a lot of clearing to do for the drive as well as the house site itself, and the trees are about an even mix of pine, maple and what people around here call Hardhack, which to my understanding is Ironwood.

So my predicament is that I am planning on using this wood as my main source of heat starting around Christmas when we move in. I've got all this wood downed but haven't had any time to split or properly stack any of it, and unfortunately it looks like it's going to be another month before I can start splitting. Many of these trees were taken down last summer, and some were down this spring.

Am I crazy to think this wood is going to be dry enough to burn this winter? The one person I've asked who I trust (years of experience burning wood) said it should be ok - not ideal but not really a problem.

Anyone have any thoughts?

 

[Robbie]

If you could get it at least cut into smaller pieces, it will be even better. If it was cut last year and not cut into shorter pieces, it will still burn ok but will probably still be a little green.

Bottom line, it won't cure as good unless split, but it will cure ok if cut into smaller pieces and not lying right on the ground or at least don't let in lay in a low wet areas.


Robbie

 

[Burnin up VT]

It is all cut into at the max 12' lengths - and much of it is already cut down to 3' and 1.5' (well - probably anywhere from 12" to 24" - I'm not so good at eyeballing my lengths yet ). It's all in piles, and I'm making one large pile that I'm going to take a splitter to in about a month.

 

[Gooserider]

First thing that you should do is determine your ideal "cut length" for your stove - typically this will be about 2" less than your firebox in whichever direction you load - or what the manual gives as maximum log length. I suggest using your saw as a measuring guide - measure from the tip of the blade to your cut length and put a big mark on the case. When figuring out where to make the next cut hold the mark on the case where you are measuring from and the tip will point at your start point for the next cut. I pick some flaw in the bark to use as a mark to put the saw on, or even just 'burp' the saw enough to put a mark down with the tip. It doesn't take much practice to learn to produce consistent rounds within an inch or two. If cutting to two inches less than maximum, it means everything you cut will be able to fit in the stove.

You don't want the maximum length rounds because that will mean that the inevetable over-spec lengths won't fit. Also most stoves will burn better if there's a little extra space on the ends next to the stove walls. However if you have logs that are two short, it means you won't be getting as much fuel into the firebox as you can, and consequently not as much heat out. Also every extra cut means a certain amount of wasted wood - start raking up the sawdust and you'll see how much- it's kind of amazing.

Some folks use tools like the paint marker discussed in the Gear section recently, or various measuring sticks that attach to the saw, but I'm not fond of them because they are just one more thing to carry around.

Having gotten your "cut length" figured out, I'd make it a priority to get your logs cut to length and stacked off the ground as much as possible - they will not dry at all to speak of while sitting on the ground, and cut rounds will dry much faster than log length.

Gooserider

 

[wg_bent]

I'm not confident that it would be ready to burn by christmas. That's awfully big pieces to season well in a year. It took me quite a while to season some oak I had. Like almost 2 years. The Pine might be o.k.

 

[DiscoInferno]

If you have any woodburning neighbors you could try to arrange a swap: their excess seasoned wood for somewhat more of your green wood. I did something like that once.

 

[Eric Johnson]

Firewood is like money in the bank--except it's more like a CD in that there is a substantial penalty for early withdrawal.

I would consider buying or trading for some dry wood for this winter. Everything will work a lot better, and then you'll have some nice, dry wood of your own the following winter.

 

[thephotohound]

Eric -

Excellent CD analogy. As someone who's in banking, well done!

 

[Burnin up VT]

With all the newfangled tech in wood stoves these days, what is the end result of burning wood that is too green? Does the secondary burn of stoves take care of most of the extra creosote you would produce (with more of a light-show), or does more still make its way up the pipe? Is it purely about the heat you're able to produce, and the ability to keep a fire going?

 

[BrotherBart]

With all the newfangled tech in wood stoves these days, what is the end result of burning wood that is too green? Does the secondary burn of stoves take care of most of the extra creosote you would produce (with more of a light-show), or does more still make its way up the pipe? Is it purely about the heat you're able to produce, and the ability to keep a fire going?

Besides being very hard to start and keep burning, the extra moisture cooked out of green/wet wood prevents secondary burn from occuring. Steam at the top of a firebox can't burn, it just goes up the flue carrying the assorted nasties with it. In the process the steam cools the pipe long before it gets to the top and the aforementioned nasties glue theirselves to the wall of the flue.

 

[Eric Johnson]

You can ruin a catalytic combustor if you try to burn green wood, because the moisture coming off the wood will create a thermal shock to the ceramic substrate. And it's pretty hard to get the secondary burn going, in stoves that use that technology, when burning green wood.

So I guess the bottom line from my point of view is that if you're going be burning green or wet wood, best to use an older stove. You'll still get creosote and lousy performance, but you won't damage the stove.

Like many people on this board, I've burned my share of green wood over the years. You can get through a winter that way, but I don't recommend it, especially in a place like Vermont.

 

[Burnin up VT]

We're putting in a Quad 4300 so it's not a cat at least, but it does have that secondary burn (do any non-cat stoves not have that now?). That's interesting about the steam - I hadn't thought of that. Eric, just to make sure I'm understanding - you say you'd use an older stove and "you won't damage the stove" do you mean you won't damage it because you're using an older one that doesn't rely on secondary burn tech? Will green wood clog up the works in the Quad?

Warren you mention the pine might be ok - I guess I should definitely keep it separated by species then? Do you guys normally do that so you can mix together a load of what you need when you need it? I also heard what I assume is an old wives tale, and that is that the ironwood is so dense that it actually has very little moisture in it, and you can burn it without seasoning it. Is that just a load of... un-split wood?

Oh and Gooserider thanks for the tips on cutting - those are great ideas!

 

[Gooserider]

With all the newfangled tech in wood stoves these days, what is the end result of burning wood that is too green? Does the secondary burn of stoves take care of most of the extra creosote you would produce (with more of a light-show), or does more still make its way up the pipe? Is it purely about the heat you're able to produce, and the ability to keep a fire going?

New tech stoves are arguably WORSE at dealing with green wood than the old smoke dragons. A smoke dragon would just make more smoke and less heat, but aside from building up creosote even faster, they weren't harmed by it, and would work somewhat.

Newer tech stoves are fussier about their wood, if it's got to much moisture they won't burn well, and MAY suffer damage, depending to some extent on the stove design.

The problem is that before wood can burn, you must first drive off the moisture, which absorbs a large amount of heat. Since the wood dries gradually with the outer layers of a split drying and burning while the inner layers are still putting out moisture, this keeps the fire burning very cold during most of the gasification stage of the fire. Secondary combustion, whether by air tubes or a cat, requires that you exceed a certain minimum temperature, and green wood may prevent the flames from getting hot enough. If the fire isn't hot enough, the unburned gases and particulates travel through the stove and out the chimney, building up deposits that can clog passages as they go.

As mentioned, if you kick in the cat on a cat stove before the fire is up to temperature you may get damage to the ceramic substrate of the cat due to the thermal shock of the cold smoke hitting the hot cat, just like you can crack glassware in the kitchen with abrupt temperature changes.

If you must burn green stuff, it is best to run the stove on the hotter settings, and load smaller amounts of wood more often, in order to keep the temps in the stove high, and minimize the amount of cooling water vapor being produced at any one time. If using a stove with a bypass damper (such as a cat stove or an Everburn design) give the fire extra time to get established before kicking in the bypass, and figure on cleaning the stove and chimney more often.

Gooserider

 

[BrotherBart]

Green wood is not going to hurt a non-cat stove. If you have to burn green burn about a two to one ratio. Two parts of the pine to one part of the green crap. And don't fill up the stove. You need the green crap to produce a coal bed for you after the pine drives off the moisture.

But ya ain't gonna hurt that Quad. You will need to keep a real close eye on the chimney because you will be cleaning it more often than with good seasoned wood and you don't want to neglect it and set off a chimney fire in the liner. A few shots of the anti-creosote spray about once a day won't hurt either. It will make it easier to brush the stuff out. The only sensitive things in that stove are the ceramic fiberboard baffle and the blanket on top of it. Green wood won't do jack to them but turn them brown. When the fire gets hot the brown creosote from start up will burn right off of them and be know as heat. The biggest issue will be starting it and being able to level out to a good consistent burn. The pine will help ya do it.

That stove is almost a twin sister to my NC-30.

When you get it installed and ready to start burning this fall check in for some tips on making her heat da joint.

 

[Eric Johnson]

My comments were in reference to cat stoves. I don't want to sound like an alarmist; you burn what you've got. We all have.

Having said that, however, I know from experience that trying to heat with wet wood can lead to unwise and unsafe practices, like trying to get the fire going good by burning it with the ash door open, for example. That can lead to an overheated stove and a chimney fire, if you get distracted and forget what you were doing. So you can inadvertantly damage your equipment (or worse) in an attempt to extract some heat from green firewood.

If you have any way of stacking some of that wood in heated space or near the stove or a furnace, it will dry out a lot faster after the normal air drying season ends, usually around the first part of October in this part of the country. Wood stacked inside (where the relative humidity is already pretty low in the winter months) should help it dry out sufficiently by the January and February, when dry wood becomes most useful. You can stretch our your resource by mixing in the pine and, when you get dry hardwood, by mixing a few less-dry chunks in with a good base of dry wood.

I would also get into the habit of inspecting/cleaning your chimney on a very regular basis--say twice a month or even once a week if you can--just for peace of mind. If you have a stainless steel liner with a tee in the right position, you can clean your chimney from the bottom up in about 15 minutes. When I had a rig like that, I would clean it once a week (Sunday afternoon after getting home from x-c skiing, before taking the shower). I slept a lot easier knowing that even if I had a chimney fire, there wouldn't be enough creosote in my chimney to cause a problem.

 

[Burnin up VT]

Thanks for all the wisdom. The plan is to use the unfinished basement to store quite a bit of wood during the winter - maybe enough to get us through the first winter. The basement isn't heated at this point, but at least it will be dry. From the basement we're going to be moving a few days worth of wood at a time up to the living room near to the stove - that should definitely give it a quick drying before it gets burnt. I'm wondering if I can't get away with just using this wood and making sure to get a mix of the different species in there. If October is basically the end of the drying season I could move that wood into the basement then if it would help with drying.

Of maybe I could buy or trade for a cord of dry wood and mix dry and green(ish) to get through the winter until next year?

EDIT to add: I've got good access to the chimney from the roof which is very easy to access. It's a completely straight shot about 26-30' in length.

 

[DiscoInferno]

EDIT to add: I've got good access to the chimney from the roof which is very easy to access. It's a completely straight shot about 26-30' in length.

Well, you should have a heck of a draft, at least.

 

[Gooserider]

Sounds like a good draft setup, but remember that roofs in winter are dangerous places, especially if snow covered - which I hear is common in VT... I pretty much HAVE to clean from the bottom because it's next to impossible to get to the top of my chimney even in ideal conditions, but in the winter I'd clean from the bottom no matter what just from the safety standpoint.

Gooserider

 

[Burnin up VT]

It's actually one of the safest roofs I've seen - and I'm not good with heights at all. My last house I had to get up on the roof multiple times to hammer off ice dams - not fun stuff. I'm actually thinking of installing some handholds on one outside wall where you have access to the roof just for added safety - not just for wintertime. I've always loved being on the roof (pretty strange since I hate heights) and I can imagine doing some serious meteor shower/sunset/fireworks watching from up there at different times of the year.

Is it possible to have too good of a draft? Do they make some kind of baffle in that case?

 

[Gooserider]

It's actually one of the safest roofs I've seen - and I'm not good with heights at all. My last house I had to get up on the roof multiple times to hammer off ice dams - not fun stuff. I'm actually thinking of installing some handholds on one outside wall where you have access to the roof just for added safety - not just for wintertime. I've always loved being on the roof (pretty strange since I hate heights) and I can imagine doing some serious meteor shower/sunset/fireworks watching from up there at different times of the year.

Is it possible to have too good of a draft? Do they make some kind of baffle in that case?

Roof top observatories and such can be fun, and as long as you have a safe setup can be OK, but I'd as soon not take the chance...

As to haveing too much draft, yes it is possible, but if so it's an easy fix - just add one of the traditional manual stack dampers to add a bit of restriction.

Gooserider

 

[Eric Johnson]

Thanks for all the wisdom. The plan is to use the unfinished basement to store quite a bit of wood during the winter - maybe enough to get us through the first winter. The basement isn't heated at this point, but at least it will be dry. From the basement we're going to be moving a few days worth of wood at a time up to the living room near to the stove - that should definitely give it a quick drying before it gets burnt. I'm wondering if I can't get away with just using this wood and making sure to get a mix of the different species in there. If October is basically the end of the drying season I could move that wood into the basement then if it would help with drying.

Of maybe I could buy or trade for a cord of dry wood and mix dry and green(ish) to get through the winter until next year?

EDIT to add: I've got good access to the chimney from the roof which is very easy to access. It's a completely straight shot about 26-30' in length.

Stacking in the basement is a good strategy. You should have dry wood by the dead of winter if you do that. I would shoot for Columbus Day weekend as the date for getting the wood moved inside. Then I would put a space heater in there--electric or kerosene--and maybe even a fan, though the fan might not be necessary if the stuff has already been air dried for a few months.

But the sooner you get it split and stacked this summer, the better--regardless.

 

[Gooserider]

Thanks for all the wisdom. The plan is to use the unfinished basement to store quite a bit of wood during the winter - maybe enough to get us through the first winter. The basement isn't heated at this point, but at least it will be dry. From the basement we're going to be moving a few days worth of wood at a time up to the living room near to the stove - that should definitely give it a quick drying before it gets burnt. I'm wondering if I can't get away with just using this wood and making sure to get a mix of the different species in there. If October is basically the end of the drying season I could move that wood into the basement then if it would help with drying.

Of maybe I could buy or trade for a cord of dry wood and mix dry and green(ish) to get through the winter until next year?

EDIT to add: I've got good access to the chimney from the roof which is very easy to access. It's a completely straight shot about 26-30' in length.

Stacking in the basement is a good strategy. You should have dry wood by the dead of winter if you do that. I would shoot for Columbus Day weekend as the date for getting the wood moved inside. Then I would put a space heater in there--electric or kerosene--and maybe even a fan, though the fan might not be necessary if the stuff has already been air dried for a few months.

But the sooner you get it split and stacked this summer, the better--regardless.

Actually I would say that a dehumidifier might be more important than a space heater. If the wood is still putting out moisture, it will be better to have cool dry air than warm humid air..

Gooserider

 

[Eric Johnson]

If it's unheated space, then I think you will need some source of heat to drive the moisture out of the wood. The hotter the better. Think dry kiln. An added benefit is that your house will get some humidity out of the deal, which is nice in the winter.

 

[BrotherBart]

If it's unheated space, then I think you will need some source of heat to drive the moisture out of the wood. The hotter the better. Think dry kiln. An added benefit is that your house will get some humidity out of the deal, which is nice in the winter.

A standard dehumidifier would sure heat the joint up while taking out the moisture. I can't run the dehumidifier in the basement while I am working because the exhaust coming off the back of that thing is HOT. It raises the temp of the basement as much as twenty degrees.

Since they are just air conditioners all of the heat they take out of the air at the front to condense the moisture on the coils gets concentrated and blown out the back just like a window unit. Except they aren't in a window to blow it outside.

 

[bwolfe1]

Sedore Stoves burn green wood well with little effect on chimney creosote. You have to start your fire with dry wood but after that you can burn any wood without damage to your chimney or stove. I know friend that heated his house for $35.00 last year with dump-truck load of green lumber scraps delivered.

www.sedoreusa.com