Too much choice

[app333]

I want to take advantage of the 26% tax credit and update my 30+ old BK. I´m overwhelmed by my choices. Live in 1600 sq foot older manufactured home in Montana and I only run the woodstove - turned off propane years ago. because of the cost. I am considering a Green Mountain 60 or BK princess or a Lopi. I have never used a cat stove and would have to stop using my stove as an incinerator unless I go with a Lopi. The showroom guy says he thinks the soapstone stoves are not great for the shoulder seasons that are lengthening here every year as they take too long to warm up. He is getting more partial to steel stoves because of this weather change here in the mountains. This is why I was thinking maybe the hybrid GM? However, everyone I talk to seems to hate cat. stoves so that is why the LOPI is in the running and Iḿ not sure how disciplined I will be about my old habits. Weatherwise, we usually get 10 days at -20/30, and a few weeks in the -1 to -10 but for the most part, nights are in the +0/20 range and some crisp negative mornings. I do have to leave the house for 6-8 hours as I am a teacher so have to leave the fire unattended. I also have an 8´ flue and double wall 8-inch stove pipe up to the ceiling for my old BK, so will have to buy an enlarger or about 10 feet of 6-inch pipe to reach from the stove to the ceiling box which is a straight shot and no elbows. From what I am reading a lot of people seem to think that the enlarger causes draft problems but I cannot afford to redo the whole chimney. Any advice anyone on what you would do? Everyone is so understaffed in the showrooms, I cannot get good help. I clean the chimney every month because I am paranoid about chimney fires. I don´t want to oversize with a super-efficient stove that is too large and run the stove too cool and create creosote. But a decent size firebox is a must. I am used to a very inefficient old stove so anything is going to be a vast improvement, LOL.

 

[begreen]

Due to the short chimney, I would lean toward the Princess. It is a strong, proven design.
How well insulated is the home. Friends have a Marlette that was Montana specced with 6" walls. It's pretty tight and well insulated.

 

[Highbeam]

You say 8’ flue but also say 10’ to the ceiling. How long is the total chimney system from top of stove to chimney cap?

Your old stove is very controllable which helps in your smaller home due to a very low available burn rate. The Lopi for sure and probably the GM won’t have such a low burn rate. So it’s going to be short burn times and big swings in temperature but lower emissions if you choose the lopi or GM.

Primary wood heat with a small home is a good match for the low burn rates of a good cat stove like the BK. I have about 10 years using my princess as primary heat in a 1700 sf house.

I agree with the salesman about stone. It sucks. Takes forever to heat up but looks great. I used a modern stone stove for about 7 years as primary heat and was glad to upgrade to a catalytic blaze king.

 

[bholler]

You say 8’ flue but also say 10’ to the ceiling. How long is the total chimney system from top of stove to chimney cap?

Your old stove is very controllable which helps in your smaller home due to a very low available burn rate. The Lopi for sure and probably the GM won’t have such a low burn rate. So it’s going to be short burn times and big swings in temperature but lower emissions if you choose the lopi or GM.

Primary wood heat with a small home is a good match for the low burn rates of a good cat stove like the BK. I have about 10 years using my princess as primary heat in a 1700 sf house.

I agree with the salesman about stone. It sucks. Takes forever to heat up but looks great. I used a modern stone stove for about 7 years as primary heat and was glad to upgrade to a catalytic blaze king.

Their house isn't small it's 1600 SQ ft. And they are only out of the house 6 to 8 hours. So any midsized to large stove will work. Not saying anything negative about the princess but any of the 3 should do fine

 

[Ashful]

 

[begreen]

You say 8’ flue but also say 10’ to the ceiling. How long is the total chimney system from top of stove to chimney cap?

Your old stove is very controllable which helps in your smaller home due to a very low available burn rate. The Lopi for sure and probably the GM won’t have such a low burn rate. So it’s going to be short burn times and big swings in temperature but lower emissions if you choose the lopi or GM.

Primary wood heat with a small home is a good match for the low burn rates of a good cat stove like the BK. I have about 10 years using my princess as primary heat in a 1700 sf house.

I agree with the salesman about stone. It sucks. Takes forever to heat up but looks great. I used a modern stone stove for about 7 years as primary heat and was glad to upgrade to a catalytic blaze king.

I'm wondering if this 30 yr old BK even had secondary combustion. They were big-bellied smoke dragons before going catalytic. However, they could put out a lot of heat. More than the modern Princess I think. Thus the question about insulation. If it's 2x4 construction then the BK King might be better.

Also, wondering about the chimney system. At 30 yrs it may be at end of life and may not be 2100ºHT.

 

[Highbeam]

I'm wondering if this 30 yr old BK even had secondary combustion. They were big-bellied smoke dragons before going catalytic. However, they could put out a lot of heat. More than the modern Princess I think. Thus the question about insulation. If it's 2x4 construction then the BK King might be better.

Also, wondering about the chimney system. At 30 yrs it may be at end of life and may not be 2100ºHT.

30 years old is from the early 90s, not sure if BK was still “smoke dragon” ish at that time but precat according to OP so pretty primitive and likely capable of a slow burn.

This small home (yes, small, about the same as a double wide trailer. MT state median size is 2040 sf)was probably pretty comfortable as a result. Modern stoves, the ones not designed for low burn rates, could be a big shock to the OP.

Load up a decent size plate steel stove full enough for an 8 hour long burn with Montana fir and it’s a lot of heat.

Good point about the chimney. Might be time for a replacement. Also being 8” is an added complexity. Do all of the stoves work on 8”?

 

[app333]

I want to take advantage of the 26% tax credit and update my 30+ old BK. I´m overwhelmed by my choices. Live in 1600 sq foot older manufactured home in Montana and I only run the woodstove - turned off propane years ago. because of the cost. I am considering a Green Mountain 60 or BK princess or a Lopi. I have never used a cat stove and would have to stop using my stove as an incinerator unless I go with a Lopi. The showroom guy says he thinks the soapstone stoves are not great for the shoulder seasons that are lengthening here every year as they take too long to warm up. He is getting more partial to steel stoves because of this weather change here in the mountains. This is why I was thinking maybe the hybrid GM? However, everyone I talk to seems to hate cat. stoves so that is why the LOPI is in the running and Iḿ not sure how disciplined I will be about my old habits. Weatherwise, we usually get 10 days at -20/30, and a few weeks in the -1 to -10 but for the most part, nights are in the +0/20 range and some crisp negative mornings. I do have to leave the house for 6-8 hours as I am a teacher so have to leave the fire unattended. I also have an 8´ flue and double wall 8-inch stove pipe up to the ceiling for my old BK, so will have to buy an enlarger or about 10 feet of 6-inch pipe to reach from the stove to the ceiling box which is a straight shot and no elbows. From what I am reading a lot of people seem to think that the enlarger causes draft problems but I cannot afford to redo the whole chimney. Any advice anyone on what you would do? Everyone is so understaffed in the showrooms, I cannot get good help. I clean the chimney every month because I am paranoid about chimney fires. I don´t want to oversize with a super-efficient stove that is too large and run the stove too cool and create creosote. But a decent size firebox is a must. I am used to a very inefficient old stove so anything is going to be a vast improvement, LOL.

Due to the short chimney, I would lean toward the Princess. It is a strong, proven design.
How well insulated is the home. Friends have a Marlette that was Montana specced with 6" walls. It's pretty tight and well insulated.

Fairly well-insulated - leaning towards the Lopi but I dont think it qualifies for a tax credit which sucks :{

 

[app333]

30 years old is from the early 90s, not sure if BK was still “smoke dragon” ish at that time but precat according to OP so pretty primitive and likely capable of a slow burn.

This small home (yes, small, about the same as a double wide trailer. MT state median size is 2040 sf)was probably pretty comfortable as a result. Modern stoves, the ones not designed for low burn rates, could be a big shock to the OP.

Load up a decent size plate steel stove full enough for an 8 hour long burn with Montana fir and it’s a lot of heat.

Good point about the chimney. Might be time for a replacement. Also being 8” is an added complexity. Do all of the stoves work on 8”?

Haha - No secondary burn, just straight up the chimney. Def no cat. Replaced the chimney in about 2003 from 8¨ single wall stove pipe to double.

 

[bholler]

30 years old is from the early 90s, not sure if BK was still “smoke dragon” ish at that time but precat according to OP so pretty primitive and likely capable of a slow burn.

This small home (yes, small, about the same as a double wide trailer. MT state median size is 2040 sf)was probably pretty comfortable as a result. Modern stoves, the ones not designed for low burn rates, could be a big shock to the OP.

Load up a decent size plate steel stove full enough for an 8 hour long burn with Montana fir and it’s a lot of heat.

Good point about the chimney. Might be time for a replacement. Also being 8” is an added complexity. Do all of the stoves work on 8”?

Yes some old stoves could burn very low while making a huge mess of the chimney. But many can no longer do that because they are now leaky as hell.


And yes average Montana home size is 2040 SQ ft. Making it the state with the 4th largest average home size. In the country. Most states are in the 1700 to 1800 range. And new home sizes have gone down drastically

 

[begreen]

Haha - No secondary burn, just straight up the chimney. Def no cat. Replaced the chimney in about 2003 from 8¨ single wall stove pipe to double.

Well. the good news is that anything will be an improvement from that wood hog. You might want to look at the Drolet HT3000. It's affordable, has a big belly, and qualifies for the tax credit according to SBI.
It sounds like the stove pipe was replaced in 2003. Was the chimney assembly (from the ceiling to the chimney cap) also replaced at that time? If not, it should be checked out. This would be a good time to replace the outdoor part if it is 30 yrs old. The tax credit is on the entire installation.

 

[app333]

Fairly well-insulated - leaning towards the Lopi but I dont think it qualifies for a tax credit which sucks :{Folks do you think the Lopi Evergreen could handle that space - I would rather the Endeavor because it has a bigger firebox, but it does not qualify for the creit and I am going to have to pay for that stovepipe enlarger etc

 

[app333]

Well. the good news is that anything will be an improvement from that wood hog. You might want to look at the Drolet HT3000. It's affordable, has a big belly, and qualifies for the tax credit according to SBI.
It sounds like the stove pipe was replaced in 2003. Was the chimney assembly (from the ceiling to the chimney cap) also replaced at that time? If not, it should be checked out. This would be a good time to replace the outdoor part if it is 30 yrs old. The tax credit is on the entire installation.

Yes - the chimney assembly was replaced - I have seen the Drolet on the internet but never in the showrooms around here.

 

[begreen]

Yes - the chimney assembly was replaced - I have seen the Drolet on the internet but never in the showrooms around here.

Drolet's are usually sold through big box stores and online. I think Lowes sells them, but they might not have one in stock at this time of year. You might find their SBI sibling equivalent in Osburn models at a local dealer. If they sell Osburn, look at the 3500.

 

[jalmondale]

For what it's worth, I have a cat soapstone stove (Woodstock Fireview), and I found it worked really well through this spring. The soapstone acts like a flywheel, and combined with the cat meant I could lower the heat output pretty far - I heat about 1500 sq ft that's pretty well insulated, and the house didn't start overheating until the outside temps were above 55. I just installed a small heat pump that should be able to take over heating at that temperature, so hopefully no need for the furnace at all this fall.

The fact that the soapstone takes a while to heat up is kind of a plus for the shoulder season - you can burn a hotter, shorter fire and the soapstone will even that out to a longer output at a lower temp. The only thing I noticed was that if you let the stove get completely cold (a few warm days and then a cold one), you'll need a bit more kindling to get the exhaust up to temperature quickly (so you might do one really short fire to heat everything back up a bit, and then a more normal fire).

 

[app333]

For what it's worth, I have a cat soapstone stove (Woodstock Fireview), and I found it worked really well through this spring. The soapstone acts like a flywheel, and combined with the cat meant I could lower the heat output pretty far - I heat about 1500 sq ft that's pretty well insulated, and the house didn't start overheating until the outside temps were above 55. I just installed a small heat pump that should be able to take over heating at that temperature, so hopefully no need for the furnace at all this fall.

The fact that the soapstone takes a while to heat up is kind of a plus for the shoulder season - you can burn a hotter, shorter fire and the soapstone will even that out to a longer output at a lower temp. The only thing I noticed was that if you let the stove get completely cold (a few warm days and then a cold one), you'll need a bit more kindling to get the exhaust up to temperature quickly (so you might do one really short fire to heat everything back up a bit, and then a more normal fire).

Thanks for the encouragement on the soapstone. I am truly stuck as to what to pick right now, I like the Lopi Endeavor but it does not qualify for the credit and I think the firebox on the Evergreen will be too small, I´m cautious of the cat on the BK princess, and itś a pricey stove, and from what I am reading the Green Mountain seems a little finicky. Correct me if I am wrong anyone on the GM? I have to make a decision as Iḿ running out of time to get it ordered and installed by late September/October - the stress of picking a stove is ruining my summer vacation Ugh, LOL

 

[rijim]

I’m not sure that not using the stove as an incinerator is a good idea with any modern stove, even with the Lopi; if you can figure that part out the stove options open up. I assume that you have plenty of clearance and that is not a concern; correct? I was very fortunate and ordered a BK Ashford in April of 2021, by July estimates were for January 2022 delivery. This brings up the next question; what stoves are available in your area, this may shape your decision?

 

[app333]

I’m not sure that not using the stove as an incinerator is a good idea with any modern stove, even with the Lopi; if you can figure that part out the stove options open up. I assume that you have plenty of clearance and that is not a concern; correct? I was very fortunate and ordered a BK Ashford in April of 2021, by July estimates were for January 2022 delivery. This brings up the next question; what stoves are available in your area, this may shape your decision?So they are

I’m not sure that not using the stove as an incinerator is a good idea with any modern stove, even with the Lopi; if you can figure that part out the stove options open up. I assume that you have plenty of clearance and that is not a concern; correct? I was very fortunate and ordered a BK Ashford in April of 2021, by July estimates were for January 2022 delivery. This brings up the next question; what stoves are available in your area, this may shape your decision?

I am being told late September 2023 for BK and GM - but there is one place that has some inventory on hand - I could get GM 60 next week if I could make up my mind and that is a pro on the pro/con list. Can anyone comment on how temperamental they are compared to the steel slug Iḿ used to? I can learn anything but I have t keep the house warm immediately when the weather changes as I have no back-up except for an infra-red near the north wall pipes. I honestly can give up on burning anything in the stove and be disciplined- that is really not so much of an issue. Also, people are mentioning that there may be a new Lopi next year - what´s the story there? I could live with a 22% rebate if they are saying it will be 75% efficient and bigger than the EG. One dealer also has quadra fires on hand, but I thought I would start torturing myself if I added that to the mix. It's also hard to find installers around here - they all want to service and install in the big elite million-dollar homes in Big Sky and the exclusive Yellowstone Club who can buy $20,,000 Finnish set-ups and the guys who look after people with more modest means are old-timers and mostly retired, I´m still hunting for an installer and the showrooms are not much help. But all that is beside the fact I can´t make up my mind.

 

[app333]

I am being told late September 2023 for BK and GM - but there is one place that has some inventory on hand - I could get GM 60 next week if I could make up my mind and that is a pro on the pro/con list.

that´s 2022 LOL

 

[app333]

You say 8’ flue but also say 10’ to the ceiling. How long is the total chimney system from top of stove to chimney cap?

Your old stove is very controllable which helps in your smaller home due to a very low available burn rate. The Lopi for sure and probably the GM won’t have such a low burn rate. So it’s going to be short burn times and big swings in temperature but lower emissions if you choose the lopi or GM.

Primary wood heat with a small home is a good match for the low burn rates of a good cat stove like the BK. I have about 10 years using my princess as primary heat in a 1700 sf house.

I agree with the salesman about stone. It sucks. Takes forever to heat up but looks great. I used a modern stone stove for about 7 years as primary heat and was glad to upgrade to a catalytic blaze king.

So are you saying that I won´t be able to get the GM and Loki to burn low and slow - they are just used to running high for max efficiency? Can you explain to a simpleton why a cat stove gives you more control as opposed the Lopi (i always want to call it Loki)

 

[begreen]

The GM and Lopi are hybrid stoves. They can burn at a lower rate with less air once the cat has become active. The modern BK equiv. is a pure cat stove with thermostatic air control. Different technology to solve the same problem.

The total flue height is very important. Modern stoves need proper draft to burn properly. I am assuming, perhaps mistakenly, that the total flue system height (stovetop to chimney cap) will be on the shy side for a manufactured home, but could be in error. The GM and Lopi stoves will want 16 ft of flue to draft properly. The BK, and several Canadian brands will work well on a shorter flue system of 12-14' ft. This is at altitudes say <3000'. Above that more flue is needed to compensate for the altitude. This was not an issue for the old BK because it has no secondary combustion system.

For certain, running a new stove will be a different experience from running the old smoke dragon. It will take some relearning. The rewards will be more heat burning less wood, and a nice fireview.

 

[app333]

The GM and Lopi are hybrid stoves. They can burn at a lower rate with less air once the cat has become active. The modern BK equiv. is a pure cat stove with thermostatic air control. Different technology to solve the same problem.

The total flue height is very important. Modern stoves need proper draft to burn properly. I am assuming, perhaps mistakenly, that the total flue system height (stovetop to chimney cap) will be on the shy side for a manufactured home, but could be in error. The GM and Lopi stoves will want 16 ft of flue to draft properly. The BK, and several Canadian brands will work well on a shorter flue system of 12-14' ft. This is at altitudes say <3000'. Above that more flue is needed to compensate for the altitude. This was not an issue for the old BK because it has no secondary combustion system.

For certain, running a new stove will be a different experience from running the old smoke dragon. It will take some relearning. The rewards will be more heat burning less wood, and a nice fireview.

Thanks for the helpful explanation - I can now walk into the showroom with better questions. Our altitude is 5700´. On remeasurement, I only have 5 feet ( wrongly estimated 8´) to the ceiling cap, probably 18" max with the cap/through the ceiling and then about 3/4 feet above the roof. It is a short chimney on the outside and I have always questioned why the former owners installed such a short one. It is windy here but gusts are usually 20-30 mph max and windy days usually 12-18 mph. I wondered why other people had such long chimneys outside their homes which always seemed such a hazard in the wind to me. I rarely have had trouble lighting a fire and keeping it going but is just a rudimentary steel firebox with a vent to the sky. BK is definitely THE popular go-to model around here with some Vermont Castings and Soapstones for those that want the aesthetic and run propane too. A lot of people cut the Cat out of their stoves because they don´t want to deal with them or replace them. At least BK gives a 10-year warranty according to the guy at BK when I called, no questions asked. In the end, I need a reliable workhorse. My carpenter friend self installed a LOPI Endeavor with the $300 rebate for his manufactured home and loves his but throws all kinds of crap in it from his worksites according to him which is why he avoided the BK. He may have to be more careful! I like the idea of not being totally reliant on a cat so I´m drawn to a hybrid but I´m not sure if I want to put money into expanding the chimney if the showroom guy agrees with you on the draft height for the GM in this area. The Hearthstone guy was the most helpful guy in all the salesrooms and they do install themselves - another pro on the list but they do tack on $300 for shipping to the showroom (not your home). Apologies for doing my thought processing here but Iḿ stuck in my head with no one to sort through this with. Thanks again for your helpful response.

 

[begreen]

I only have 5 feet ( wrongly estimated 8´) to the ceiling cap, probably 18" max with the cap/through the ceiling and then about 3/4 feet above the roof.

Did you mean 3-4 ft above the roof and not .75 ft.? Hope so. The chimney outside must honor the 10-3-2 rule.

It sounds like the current system is too short. This is typical in manufactured homes. Given the higher altitude and short chimney, I would be looking at easy breathing stoves that will function well on 13-15' of flue system. This height would not great for a VC Defiant, Lopi Liberty, or Hearthstone stove. For those stoves, a flue system about 18' high would be better at 5700'. The Blaze King Princess used to be listed at 12' but that was raised to 15' several years ago. There are several Canadian stoves that would work. A big Drolet, Osburn, Pacific Energy in non-cat, or a big Regency 3500 in catalytic would work.



This is the flue height chart for the Regency 3500

 

[Highbeam]

A hybrid stove does not mean the cat is optional, it’s still a cat stove. You need the catalyst to be working for it to burn clean. You’ll need to choose either a cat stove or noncat stove. I like cat stoves for full time heating after owning both.

The cats don’t last 10 years. They are rated to work for only so many hours and then die. That might take 100 years or like many full time burners you may only get 2 years. I get 2 years and just keep a spare.

Noncat stoves need to burn hotter for the sake of low emissions. It’s not about efficiency, but emissions. If you buy a noncat stove today it will likely burn hotter and faster than you’d like or at least hotter than you could run your old BK. The air controls just don’t shut very far.

Those GM stoves look sharp. They are pretty new though so not much track record.

Any PE dealers out there?

 

[bholler]

A hybrid stove does not mean the cat is optional, it’s still a cat stove. You need the catalyst to be working for it to burn clean. You’ll need to choose either a cat stove or noncat stove. I like cat stoves for full time heating after owning both.

The cats don’t last 10 years. They are rated to work for only so many hours and then die. That might take 100 years or like many full time burners you may only get 2 years. I get 2 years and just keep a spare.

Noncat stoves need to burn hotter for the sake of low emissions. It’s not about efficiency, but emissions. If you buy a noncat stove today it will likely burn hotter and faster than you’d like or at least hotter than you could run your old BK. The air controls just don’t shut very far.

Those GM stoves look sharp. They are pretty new though so not much track record.

Any PE dealers out there?

How many 2020 noncats have you used? The only I have are the regencies and they actually have a lower turndown