Hello, so I am attempting to add 200 gallons of storage to my seton. I hooked it up on the return side filled the tank turned the pump on and it sounds like it's cavitating, I changed it to the output side and got the same thing. Thinking that it was just air in the lines I drilled a hole in the very top of the tank, tapped it, and installed an air vent. I also installed an air vent at the highest point on my return line. Still the same thing. Cavitation. Any help is much appreciated.
Trying to add storage to Seton.
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I have two watts brand automatic float vents, one at the highest point on my return, and one at the to of the storage tank, which looks like a small propane tank stood on its side. There is also a air vent on the seton boiler that came with the boiler. I have it plumbed on the return side right now coming from the heat exchanger in the furnace it goes into the tank, back out and then returns to the boiler. The boiler has the pump on the return side feeding the boiler. I also have the expansion tanks on the return side between the tank and the pump/boiler. If I snip the two lines going into the tank and crimp them together bypassing the tank it runs just fine. Starting to get very frustrated, like I want to go get my sledge hammer and teach it a lesson frustrated.
Is there an isolation valve on the supply side going into your storage tank if so try choking in on it.
There is not. I just put one on the output side of the boiler and if I close it almost all the way of it will seem to sound close to right but if you open if very far at all it sounds like it runs out of water or starts cavitating, and even if you close the valve back down it will continue until you shut the pump off four a few seconds and then start it back up. Do you think it needs a valve placed at the tank?
maple1
Minister of Fire
I will try to get some pictures, or a drawing of it might be better. It is doing this with cold water. I didn't want to build a fire in it again until it is at least lined out where it will run with cold water.
maple1
Minister of Fire
Best to have a good central air purger. Float vents are intended for high point air elimination, not the same as an air purger. they can only eliminate air bubbles that rise up to them. An air purger removes air as it flows thru the device. Micro bubble types are the best.
Under certain conditions a float type vent on the suction side of a pump can actually suck air in. Try closing the cap on the vent on the return pipe.
This can happen if you are pumping towards an expansion tank location and causing a low pressure condition at the pump.
Or it could be as simple as you have not purged completely. Sometimes just loosening the flange bolts on the discharge side of the pump a bit will allow air to burp out.
Under certain conditions a float type vent on the suction side of a pump can actually suck air in. Try closing the cap on the vent on the return pipe.
This can happen if you are pumping towards an expansion tank location and causing a low pressure condition at the pump.
Or it could be as simple as you have not purged completely. Sometimes just loosening the flange bolts on the discharge side of the pump a bit will allow air to burp out.
Hello, sorry I haven't gotten back on here after you folks took the time to try and help me, I only have the air vents not a air purger, so I will look into getting one of those. I am running 3/4 inch line. Not sure on the size of motor, I will look and see. I temporarily unhooked the tank do to some leaks that I will have to correct. Bigger issue now, I had a chimney fire yesterday. I installed this thing about this time last year so not a long time running it. I have the back off cleaning the creasote off the pipes right now. I think I might have to replace my chimney pipe as well. Kinda wishing I would have went with a outdoor boiler instead of this one I would have burned more wood but would have spent way less money. Anyway after I get it lined back out, I am going to try to run the thermostatic mixing valve to keep the return water high. Has anyone had experience with those? Also my original thought was that if the tank was on the return line I could set the temp range where it would kick the boiler on before the return water drop dropped low enough to cause creasote on the tubes, use the tank as a buffer in a way. Does that sound like it would work or no? Also will running just one pump from the boiler, to the heat exchanger, to the tank, and then back to the boiler be okay? Most setups I see online use two pumps.
maple1
Minister of Fire
What are you aiming to accomplish with the storage?
Typically would be to burn wide open into storage, then let the fire go out once storage is charged & heat off the storage, then burn again when storage is depleted. But I don't think 200 gallons would be enough to get you far when the fire goes out. Plus, with storage on the return side, how would your load pull from storage?
Other thing is that with storage, your boiler will be seeing more cold water entering the return = more creosote. Return temp protection (thermostatic mixer) is a must with storage.
We're still kind of in the dark about your whole system & piping - diagram or pics might help. But I still don't know what your original circulator issue might be from. Sounds like trapped air. That's where knowing the exact system layout or being there in person comes in.
Also no mention of pressures - sometimes, air can be pulled in an air vent. Expansion tank? Where tied in?
Typically would be to burn wide open into storage, then let the fire go out once storage is charged & heat off the storage, then burn again when storage is depleted. But I don't think 200 gallons would be enough to get you far when the fire goes out. Plus, with storage on the return side, how would your load pull from storage?
Other thing is that with storage, your boiler will be seeing more cold water entering the return = more creosote. Return temp protection (thermostatic mixer) is a must with storage.
We're still kind of in the dark about your whole system & piping - diagram or pics might help. But I still don't know what your original circulator issue might be from. Sounds like trapped air. That's where knowing the exact system layout or being there in person comes in.
Also no mention of pressures - sometimes, air can be pulled in an air vent. Expansion tank? Where tied in?
I have 500 gallons storage on my system, but my piping is 1.5" black pipe to and from the storage tank. I run mine from 158F to 193F ( low and high settings ) I try to put enough wood in so that it burns down about 80 - 90% before shutting down. Usually in the morning I'm down to about 150F and it takes about 2 - 3 hours, depending on the conditions, to get it up to full charge. I would have gotten rid of this boiler long ago if I had not decided to try it with storage. These things are creosote factories IMO with conventional on and off cycling and lots of time just smoldering. The tubes stay pretty clean all season as long as I'm using good dry wood, which I always do.
Pat
Pat
I have a 1000 gallon tank I would like to hook up next year. I thought that having the 200 gallon tank tied in would make it burn longer and get hotter before shutting down, hopefully cutting down the level of creasote. I thought with storage on the return side, it would force the thing to run longer. I have a thermostatic mixing valve, that I am going to try to hook up. My thought was that the cycle time would be longer and maybe that would cut down on creasote. My thinking may be all wrong though. I know I just replaced my stainless steel insulated chimney after less then a year do to a chimney fire. This thing is putting off more creasote then I realized. I will have to check the chimney more often. Am I wasting my time with the 200 gallon tank? Also what size expansion tank are you using for the 500 gallon? I will try to get a drawing of the layout up. I have been busy with work, starting a new semester for school, and kids. Thanks guys.
maple1
Minister of Fire
The thing with putting storage on the return side, or in series at all actually, is that the water will have to go through your loads to get to it. So if your zones are satisfied or not calling, it won't change anything. Plus without a thermostatic mixer, your boiler will see cold return temps most all the time or a lot of it = more creosote. The way to set up storage, generally & roughly speaking, is to have your system working in two stages, so to speak. Stage one is between boiler & storage - whenever the boiler is burning, it is pumping to storage. One pump that does that, comes on whenever there's a fire, and pumps through a thermostatic mixer on a bypass loop to keep return temps above 140. You only burn to heat storage, when storage is hot you don't burn until it runs out of heat. That's what stops the creosote - boiler runs wide open whenever it is burning, all heat goes to storage. Stage two would be between storage, and your zones. The loads have their own pump(s), pumping from (top) & returning to (bottom) of storage. The stages are connected by the storage tanks. There are other things to work into the system too like backup heat source - but nothing that can't be figured out. Check out the 'revised simplest pressurized storage' thread - it's been busy the last couple days & there's some good info in it. And diagrams.
I used a 110 gallon LP tank for expansion for my 660 gallons. It was morethan enough, but didn't work the best for keeping air out of the system since it was sitting on the floor right beside storage. Non-bladder expansion like that can work good but it needs to be up high, peferably above the highest point in your system. Some use hot water tanks like that. Bladder tanks might be the best but they are kind of expensive - I put one in this summer to replace the 110 LP tank.
I used a 110 gallon LP tank for expansion for my 660 gallons. It was morethan enough, but didn't work the best for keeping air out of the system since it was sitting on the floor right beside storage. Non-bladder expansion like that can work good but it needs to be up high, peferably above the highest point in your system. Some use hot water tanks like that. Bladder tanks might be the best but they are kind of expensive - I put one in this summer to replace the 110 LP tank.
Mine is hooked up exactly like maple says... 2 stages. Boiler to storage and then your zones pull off the top of the storage tank and return it to the bottom of the storage tank, and the bottom of the storage goes back to the boiler....simple. I have about 50 gallons for expansion and it seems to work fine.
This year all I will be able to hook up is the 200 gallon tank. Is this going to make a difference in how much creosote is put off? I do have a thermostatic mixing valve, but the way I understand it from the guy I bought it from is that it is fully open at 170 F is that going to work ok? I can hook up another pump if need be and had planned to next year when I hook up the 1000 gallon tank, I just thought doing it the way I did would maybe help cut down on some of the creosote by making it burn a little longer but I know nothing about this I am learning the hard and expensive way clearly.
I would think it will help a little, but your still going to have a lot of idling time. Try and make sure your wood is as dry as possible, that will make a big difference also in how much creosote you get.
Pat
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