VC Large Winterwarm - removing the throat plates

[jrwhite]

Hi All,

I've owned a VC Large Winterwarm for about 10 years now. The Cat was replaced ( by a tech ) about 5 years ago. I'd like to do it myself this time.

In the manual it says :

To expose the combustor, first remove the throat pieces by
tapping upward at the far left and right corners with a
soft-faced hammer. Leave the bolt in the retainer loose,
and leave the retainer in place.

The left / right throat pieces move up slightly, but the retainer doesn't budge. When I attempted to loosen the retainer bolt, the nut that captures it behind the damper apeture just spins. ( it's rather hard to get it, I had to view it with a mirror )

Sorry for the dumb question, but how do you proceed from here? Do I have to somehow capture the retaining nut? Do I need to remove the bolt? The manual doesn't mention anything about this.

A second question

The quote I got from my local guy for the cat was close to $400CDN. I see that Condar and Black Swan have that cat for about $200. Who do you folks use for replacement cats?

Thanks in advance, and happy US Thanksgiving.

Jonathan

 

[certified106]

I'm not real familiar with that stove so I won't be much help on taking the stove apart. As far as the catalyst I am using a Condar steel cat and I have been extremely happy with it. I attain light off temperatures of about 350 to 400 degrees without a problem. I have heard some complaints of warping on the steel cat. However, I burn seasoned wood with low moisture content and am extremely careful of over firing the stove and have had no problems yet.

 

[jrwhite]

Thanks certified,

I was wondering about the SteelCat. The only review I saw was an Amazon one that trashed it.

Now .. just to be able to get at it!

Jonathan

 

[jrwhite]

Hi All,

I managed to get a pair of needle nose vice grips onto the retaining nut behind the throat plate apeture, and loosen the bolt. Even loosening the bolt I couldn't get the throat plates out, so, I had to remove it entirely. The throat plates don't seem to be deformed, so I can't see how the proceedure in the manual, where you leave the retaining clip in place, can work. Anyway, I hope it isn't too much of a pain to re-assemble!

I pulled out the 5 year old cat, and aside from being covered in fly ash, the honeycomb didn't appear to be too bad. There are some small hairline crackas, but, no major breaks or pieces missing. The steel jacket is somewhat deformed, but it still fits in the refractory chamber without issue. I've only lightly blown off all the surface fly ash ( which was pretty much covering the top ) .. I haven't vacumed it yet.

I'm enclosing a couple of pics to get your opinion. Should it be replaced, or does it look like it has a season or two of service left? I belive the service life on the cat is supposed to be about 12,000 hours. I seriously doubt we've hit that, as we've burned less than 2 cords per year, and a couple of recent winters were mild where we burned less than a cord.

I appreciate your opinions,

Jonathan

 

[raybonz]

As long as the cat is intact and the cat temp is heating as it should I'd wait until the cat gets lazy .. I would look for the best price and get it in house so it's here when I need it.. I have seen cats last around 8 yrs. so don't let time be the deciding factor for cat replacement.. The can around your cat does concern me as it is deformed.. My 6" round cats have never had the band deform at all...

Tay

 

[jrwhite]

Hi Tay,

Thanks for the reply. The only thing that I think could explain the deformed steel is that one time a few Christmas's ago my FIL kept the door open a crack to get more radiant heat ... by the time I noticed the stove door temp was around 500deg, and I could smell what I presume was the refractor beginning to break down. Fortunatly during this instpection the Refractory package seems to be undamaged.

As the WinterWarm is primarily a supplemental heat source for us, I was thinking about the Cordar SteelCat as a replacement as I could keep a lower fire going most of the time. What cat's do you use?

Off thread topic ..

I see you have a CDW Large. I also have a CDW large Federal Airtight in my kitchen. It's a couple of model years later, the FA264-2183 ~ 1992. This was the stove that the orignal house owners installed. I burned with it for one season when I first moved in, and then switched over to the VCWW and didn't use it again. This year I thought I'd examine the cat and see if I could get it back into service. The orignal owner boasted about the cat technology of the stove when I bought the place ( and didn't known anything about burning ). To my suprise, when I popped the top both the cat and the refractory package were missing. Ok, I thought, I could replace those. I then noticed that the damper wasn't closing entirely. Initially I thought that there was ash build-up, but, after releasing the damper pivots, removing the rope, and a closer inspection I saw that the burn chamber top had deflected and cracked. I put a straight edge on the lip and measured about a 1/4 inch deflection on each side. Sad .. I think she's a goner.

Jonathan

 

[raybonz]

Hi Tay,

Thanks for the reply. The only thing that I think could explain the deformed steel is that one time a few Christmas's ago my FIL kept the door open a crack to get more radiant heat ... by the time I noticed the stove door temp was around 500deg, and I could smell what I presume was the refractor beginning to break down. Fortunatly during this instpection the Refractory package seems to be undamaged.

As the WinterWarm is primarily a supplemental heat source for us, I was thinking about the Cordar SteelCat as a replacement as I could keep a lower fire going most of the time. What cat's do you use?

Off thread topic ..

I see you have a CDW Large. I also have a CDW large Federal Airtight in my kitchen. It's a couple of model years later, the FA264-2183 ~ 1992. This was the stove that the orignal house owners installed. I burned with it for one season when I first moved in, and then switched over to the VCWW and didn't use it again. This year I thought I'd examine the cat and see if I could get it back into service. The orignal owner boasted about the cat technology of the stove when I bought the place ( and didn't known anything about burning ). To my suprise, when I popped the top both the cat and the refractory package were missing. Ok, I thought, I could replace those. I then noticed that the damper wasn't closing entirely. Initially I thought that there was ash build-up, but, after releasing the damper pivots, removing the rope, and a closer inspection I saw that the burn chamber top had deflected and cracked. I put a straight edge on the lip and measured about a 1/4 inch deflection on each side. Sad .. I think she's a goner.

Jonathan

Hi Jonathan,
From the look of that pic that casting is NG.. You may be able to get a replacement from (broken link removed) . As for cats I have always used the Condar ceramic cats but you can also get them from other places.. My ceramic cats last me at least 6 yrs. so I see no need to "upgrade" to steel...

Ray

 

[certified106]

Sorry to hear about the stove that's a real bummer but it seems like that stove has been abused for sure! My family has 3 of these stoves the earliest one being from 1985 and the newest one being from 2005. We are still operating all three of them without any problems 24/7 during the winter months. I have the XL from 1995 in my house and the only thing we have had to do to any of them is replace door rope gaskets/cats and I still get 10 and 12 hour burns out of the stove. I'm not sure if you can get parts for yours (or if it's even worth it). Before you even consider ordering any parts I would do a very thorough inspection of the whole stove and very carefully look for other signs of warpage or cracking due to over-firing. You might be better off to just consider buying a new stove due to the age and abuse instead of taking the risk of dropping a bunch of money into it and then finding out there is another problem.

 

[raybonz]

(broken link removed to http://www.blackswanhome.com/product/inner-top-with-web)

(broken link removed to http://www.blackswanhome.com/product/baffle-newer-consolidate-dutchwest)

(broken link removed to http://www.blackswanhome.com/cdw-lg-2183.html) <----- part list for whole stove and diagram

http://www.cozycabinstoveandfireplaceparts.com/cgi/display.cgi?item_num=2461 <--- part diagram and prices from another vendor, better prices on some items worse on others..

Looks like you can get the parts you need.. Could be worth doing as the prices aren't too bad..

Ray

 

[jrwhite]

Thanks Ray and certified,

I had been on the black swan site when I was looking for the refractory package for the CDW, but I didn't see the inner top even listed as a part. Thanks for the links!

Unfortunately there are several other signs of consistant over firing. The lower part of the grate back looks like it 'melted' .. as in there is a chunk missing and massive deformation. The grates too, one is broken in two. So, doing a quick tally on parts .. cat, refractory package, inner top, damper, baffle, air distributor, grate back, and grates .. it would be approaching the cost of a new PE or Englander. Before pulling the top off I thought I could get away with just a new cat and grate back.

The original owner / builder of the house didn't really plan the heating part to well. The CDW is in the kitching / dining room area, which is like a flat roofed annex to the rest of the 3000 sq ft. two story open post/beam house. Aside from some electric baseboards and a rumford fireplace ( where we installed the VCWW ) it was his only source of heat. So, on those frosty -20c nights, I'm sure he let 'er rip. He didn't even have a thermometer on the flue. I'm amazed he didn't burn the place to the ground.

I will eventurally replace it, as the WW doesn't heat this area well and we're forced to fire up the propane, but it's not in this years budget.

Thanks again for all your help guys. I'll take your advice and get a replacement cat for the WW to keep on hand.

Jonathan

 

[raybonz]

Thanks Ray and certified,

I had been on the black swan site when I was looking for the refractory package for the CDW, but I didn't see the inner top even listed as a part. Thanks for the links!

Unfortunately there are several other signs of consistant over firing. The lower part of the grate back looks like it 'melted' .. as in there is a chunk missing and massive deformation. The grates too, one is broken in two. So, doing a quick tally on parts .. cat, refractory package, inner top, damper, baffle, air distributor, grate back, and grates .. it would be approaching the cost of a new PE or Englander. Before pulling the top off I thought I could get away with just a new cat and grate back.

The original owner / builder of the house didn't really plan the heating part to well. The CDW is in the kitching / dining room area, which is like a flat roofed annex to the rest of the 3000 sq ft. two story open post/beam house. Aside from some electric baseboards and a rumford fireplace ( where we installed the VCWW ) it was his only source of heat. So, on those frosty -20c nights, I'm sure he let 'er rip. He didn't even have a thermometer on the flue. I'm amazed he didn't burn the place to the ground.

I will eventurally replace it, as the WW doesn't heat this area well and we're forced to fire up the propane, but it's not in this years budget.

Thanks again for all your help guys. I'll take your advice and get a replacement cat for the WW to keep on hand.

Jonathan

You're welcome JR and good luck what ever you decide to do.. It sounds like that stove is pretty much shot and a new one may be the best option.. Keep us posted and if I can help lemme know..

Ray

 

[raybonz]

Sorry to hear about the stove that's a real bummer but it seems like that stove has been abused for sure! My family has 3 of these stoves the earliest one being from 1985 and the newest one being from 2005. We are still operating all three of them without any problems 24/7 during the winter months. I have the XL from 1995 in my house and the only thing we have had to do to any of them is replace door rope gaskets/cats and I still get 10 and 12 hour burns out of the stove. I'm not sure if you can get parts for yours (or if it's even worth it). Before you even consider ordering any parts I would do a very thorough inspection of the whole stove and very carefully look for other signs of warpage or cracking due to over-firing. You might be better off to just consider buying a new stove due to the age and abuse instead of taking the risk of dropping a bunch of money into it and then finding out there is another problem.

I agree that stove has taken a beaten! With proper usuage it would last MUCH longer than that.. A new or rebuilt one is the best solution..



Ray

 

[JJDaly]

Firestarter........jackpot, excellent timing, I'm having the exact same issue. I inherited a Large 2001 WinterWarm in a house I bought in 2004. I want to scope out the combustor as I sometimes get kickback when the damper is closed. I read the exact same thing in the manual, it says to leave the retainer bolt and retainer clip holding the throat pieces in place ( loose ), it's crazy, the pieces won't come out. Were you successfull in trying to put the pieces and nut / bolt back in place after removing it ? Do I have to hire Plastic Man to reach around in there to make it happen ?

 

[jrwhite]

Hi Wolfmans

Yes, I did get them off and replace them. With the damper open, using a mirror and clamp on trouble light I was able to get a pair of needle nose vice grips around the square retainer nut. I then loosened the retainer bolt, but, I couldn't get the throat plates up and out by tapping at the edges. I ended up just removing the retainer bolt, and the retainer entirely. The throat plates just slipped right out then. Fortunatly for me, the retainer nut didn't go flying off into the bowels of the stove .. it just happily stayed in place inside the vice grips. I put my finger on the back of the bolt when I removed the vice grips, and it just stayed there aftewards. There's a shelf right below it, so if it tips over, you could probably still get at it with needle nose plyers and a mirror.

When puttining the throat plates back, I first tried to attach the retainer clip, and then insert the throat plates while it was in place. ( keeping my finger on the back of the retainer nut while screwing the retainer bolt in. ) This time I got the left throat plate to seat, but no go with the right. I think there might be some slight warpage in the firebox that keeps this proceedure from working.

I ended up removing the retainer clip again. From here it was a bit of a juggling act. I placed the retaining bolt and clip on the grate close by for easy access. With one hand I positioned the throat plates ( one at a time ) while using the other hand to hold the plates in place at the center, with a finger of that hand firmly placed through the damper apature to hold the retaining nut in place. Then with my free hand I placed the retaining clip, and added that to my hand holding bundle. Finally I picked up the retainer bolt and hand turned it in, then tightned with a socket. It sounds more complex than it is. Of course, on my first try, after placing everything I noticed that the bolt was no where to be found. It had dropped through the grate ... Doh! .. redo.

Hope this helps,

Jonathan

 

[JJDaly]

Firestarter..........whoa..........thanks for the detailed explanation, sounds crazy, I guess one of the keys would be using a small vice grips ( which I have somewhere buried ). So, it is OK to actually remove the bolt / nut and clip, good news. I'll give it a shot soon and report back. Thanks again

 

[jrwhite]

I didn't remove the nut. I'm pretty sure you could re-position it if you took it out, but I wanted to take as few chances as possible.

btw ..'firestarter' is my forum post count status ... I'm jrwhite

Jonathan (jrwhite)

 

[raybonz]

I didn't remove the nut. I'm pretty sure you could re-position it if you took it out, but I wanted to take as few chances as possible.

btw ..'firestarter' is my forum post count status ... I'm jrwhite

Jonathan (jrwhite)

Jonathan (jrwhite) aka "firestarter" :cheese:

Ray

 

[jrwhite]

forever tagged

 

[JJDaly]

Pretty easy to tell I'm a noob here huh ? ..... Jonathan, I'm going to give this ( getting a visual on the combustor ) a shot but probably won't be able to attempt it till this weekend. One other question if I may...... I'm also hoping to replace the gaskets, the ones on the door look simple enough, but what about the one on the damper ? is that difficult ?

 

[raybonz]

Pretty easy to tell I'm a noob here huh ? ..... Jonathan, I'm going to give this ( getting a visual on the combustor ) a shot but probably won't be able to attempt it till this weekend. One other question if I may...... I'm also hoping to replace the gaskets, the ones on the door look simple enough, but what about the one on the damper ? is that difficult ?

Just having a little fun here Welcome to the forum! It's always good to get new people here as it keeps this forum interesting.. Before you know it you'll be giving advice here..

Ray

 

[jrwhite]

Hi Wolfmans,

I haven't replaced the damper gaskets on my WW yet. Just from looking at it though, the gaskets are on the inside of the damper apeture (called the upper fireback in the manual). Once you have the throat plates, grill bar, grill, and grill back out to remove the cat, I 'think' it would just be a matter of removing those two hex bolts on the left and right of the apeture plate. It looks like it would just swing down, and you could get at the back to replace the gaskets.

Mine still look OK after about 10 years of service. You possibly just have an accumulation of fly ash on yours preventing the damper from closing properly. There's also a nut right in the middle of the damper that seems to be for adjusting the damper position. Perhaps yours is out of adjustment.

Jonathan ( aka firestarter )

 

[raybonz]

Hi Wolfmans,

I haven't replaced the damper gaskets on my WW yet. Just from looking at it though, the gaskets are on the inside of the damper apeture (called the upper fireback in the manual). Once you have the throat plates, grill bar, grill, and grill back out to remove the cat, I 'think' it would just be a matter of removing those two hex bolts on the left and right of the apeture plate. It looks like it would just swing down, and you could get at the back to replace the gaskets.

Mine still look OK after about 10 years of service. You possibly just have an accumulation of fly ash on yours preventing the damper from closing properly. There's also a nut right in the middle of the damper that seems to be for adjusting the damper position. Perhaps yours is out of adjustment.

Jonathan ( aka firestarter )

:lol:

 

[JJDaly]

So I tackled this Sunday morning. I first tried your method Johathan but I don't know how the heck you reached aruond the damper to get a hold of that retainer clip nut holding the throat pieces in place. Wearing some thin work gloves and without loosening the retainer clip at all I was able to wiggle the right throat piece up enough a bit, I then took a large flat bladed screwdriver ( see picture I attached ) and on the far right of the right throat piece I was able to push it to the left giving me just enough room to move it up some more. When pushing it left I also moved the screwdriver up so the peice went left and up at the same time. I got them both out this way, didn't loosen of remove the clip at all. And I used a similar process to get them back in. The key is wedging them towards the center to give you room to move them. There was a lot of ash accumulated on the combustor. I cleaned it we a leaf blower. Only one minor minimal crack in one of the combs. See the pics, it has some warping, is it enough for it to require replacement ? I also cleaned the gasket around the damper plate. Put it back together and it now works great. I don't get as much cold air leakage when not in use ( damper sitting better ) and no kickback at all with it running and the damper closed.

 

[jrwhite]

Hi Wolfmans,

Well, you got it out, and that's all that's important! I tried the wiggling and prying, but didn't want to risk damaging the throat plates. It helps once you can see how the clip and plates together when you have the clip off. Perhaps I'll try this method again the next time I inspect the cat.

When I had the damper open, there was just enough room for me to slide my un-gloved finger through and around the back where the retaining nut was, and just enough room to slide down the needle nose vice grips to capture it.

Your cat looks about the same condition as mine, except your steel casing isn't as deformed as mine is. Since I could get it to sit in the refractory chamber and completely close the the refractory chamber door, I put it back in to give it a spin. The sweeps were in last week, and they inspected the flue. They said that there wasn't enough buildup to warrant a cleaning, and that they'd be back in the spring, so, the cat must have been working.

Once the stove is cruising with a good bed of coals, when I stop the air down to near fully closed and engage the cat, I get about 160F coming out of the top vent ( measured with a meat thermometer, about 3" away from the exhaust port ). This is with the firebox about half full with fuel. I'd be interested to hear what you get under similar operating conditions.

Jonathan

 

[JJDaly]

Jonathan, I have to replace the gasket set on my door, it's shot, so even if I turn the air feeding it down low air is still leaking in so - I have to replace those before taking any measurements. I have one of those steel mechanical flat thermometers that sits on the top of it ........ where are you talking about placing the meat thermometer to test ? with the door closed around the top somewhere ?