Warring Fireplace Experts...need advice

[Patanna]

I live in northeast Florida where it becomes chilly and sometimes cold. I have a zero clearance fireplace that I hate. My house is 2300 sq. ft. and was built in 2005. I'm not looking to heat the entire house, only to supplement the heat pump, mostly in the family room kitchen area where the thermostat is located. I wish to avoid the red (electricity) light coming on, and to enjoy some evening fire in the family room. So I got estimates from 2 different fireplace/wood stove contractors to upgrade my fireplace. Both businesses have fine reputations. Both estimates are from the business owners who are competent, intelligent experts. Yet they have totally different opinions on safety, which leaves my head spinning.

Expert #1 recommends a Buck Bay Series Model 18 wood stove. It comes with a blower and thermostat included. The fireplace expert and the brochure both say that it is pre-fab approved and mobile home approved. It costs $3100 installed and that includes the new flue liner. It will fit inside my current fireplace, so I do not have to redo the wall around the fireplace.

Expert #2 says: "We propose to remove the existing fireplace and chimney so that we can install a RegencyEX90 Excalibur Fireplace with arched surround, blower, ash drawer, and your choice of chimney. We will then install an aluminum chase pan and spark arrester.
This with air cooled chimney will cost: $8121.
This with solid packed 2100 degree chimney costs $9621.
The cost for this project does NOT include facing replacement." (The wall and mantel will be wrecked.)

Expert #2 is adamant that what Expert #1 proposes is unsafe and might burn my house down. I pointed out that the manufacturer's brochure says that Expert #1's equipment is safe in my type of fireplace. Expert #2 says that the Buck Bay Model 18 was never tested in my model of zero clearance fireplace, so no one knows if it is safe or not. He says that the manufacturer pays lawyers lots of $ to fight lawsuits. Expert #1 says that they have installed over 200 Buck Bay Model 18 wood stoves in zero clearance fireplaces within the last 2 years and have not had any problems. He says to burn oak or hickory, no soft wood, and no cherry (which burns too hot).

Expert #2's unit is about 10% more heat efficient, but the Buck Bay Model 18 is adequate here in NE Florida (63%). It heats 800-1200 sq. ft. which will keep my open concept family room/kitchen area toasty.

I favor Expert #2's Bucky Bay Model 18 because it is about 1/3 the cost of Expert #1's recommendation. But I do not want to burn my house down.

Advice please? Has anyone used the Buck Bay Model 18 in a zero clearance fireplace? Why is this so controversial? Thank you!

 

[bholler]

Expert 2 is right. What expert 1 is proposing has not been tested and doesnt meet code.

 

[bholler]

I live in northeast Florida where it becomes chilly and sometimes cold. I have a zero clearance fireplace that I hate. My house is 2300 sq. ft. and was built in 2005. I'm not looking to heat the entire house, only to supplement the heat pump, mostly in the family room kitchen area where the thermostat is located. I wish to avoid the red (electricity) light coming on, and to enjoy some evening fire in the family room. So I got estimates from 2 different fireplace/wood stove contractors to upgrade my fireplace. Both businesses have fine reputations. Both estimates are from the business owners who are competent, intelligent experts. Yet they have totally different opinions on safety, which leaves my head spinning.

Expert #1 recommends a Buck Bay Series Model 18 wood stove. It comes with a blower and thermostat included. The fireplace expert and the brochure both say that it is pre-fab approved and mobile home approved. It costs $3100 installed and that includes the new flue liner. It will fit inside my current fireplace, so I do not have to redo the wall around the fireplace.

Expert #2 says: "We propose to remove the existing fireplace and chimney so that we can install a RegencyEX90 Excalibur Fireplace with arched surround, blower, ash drawer, and your choice of chimney. We will then install an aluminum chase pan and spark arrester.
This with air cooled chimney will cost: $8121.
This with solid packed 2100 degree chimney costs $9621.
The cost for this project does NOT include facing replacement." (The wall and mantel will be wrecked.)

Expert #2 is adamant that what Expert #1 proposes is unsafe and might burn my house down. I pointed out that the manufacturer's brochure says that Expert #1's equipment is safe in my type of fireplace. Expert #2 says that the Buck Bay Model 18 was never tested in my model of zero clearance fireplace, so no one knows if it is safe or not. He says that the manufacturer pays lawyers lots of $ to fight lawsuits. Expert #1 says that they have installed over 200 Buck Bay Model 18 wood stoves in zero clearance fireplaces within the last 2 years and have not had any problems. He says to burn oak or hickory, no soft wood, and no cherry (which burns too hot).

Expert #2's unit is about 10% more heat efficient, but the Buck Bay Model 18 is adequate here in NE Florida (63%). It heats 800-1200 sq. ft. which will keep my open concept family room/kitchen area toasty.

I favor Expert #2's Bucky Bay Model 18 because it is about 1/3 the cost of Expert #1's recommendation. But I do not want to burn my house down.

Advice please? Has anyone used the Buck Bay Model 18 in a zero clearance fireplace? Why is this so controversial? Thank you!

I really dont see why it is controversial it is pretty clear cut. There are just some contractors and even stove manufacturers that are more concerned with making the sale than safety.

 

[webby3650]

Here’s the deal. The Fireplace manufacturer tests their units as little as possible. It passes the minimum tests for approval and they stop there. Tell me, why would they test it for an insert? There’s no money in it for them... they aren’t gonna do it.
Now, woodstove manufacturers take their product and put it through extensive testing in various fireplaces, in worse case scenarios. Destruction tests are what they are called.
Like anything, there are people that see it acceptable and those who don’t.

 

[bholler]

Here’s the deal. The Fireplace manufacturer tests their units as little as possible. It passes the minimum tests for approval and they stop there. Tell me, why would they test it for an insert? There’s no money in it for them... they aren’t gonna do it.
Now, woodstove manufacturers take their product and put it through extensive testing in various fireplaces, in worse case scenarios. Destruction tests are what they are called.
Like anything, there are people that see it acceptable and those who don’t.

Yes but there is absolutly no valid argument that says doing this is code compliant unless the fireplace manufacter is ok with it

 

[webby3650]

Yes but there is absolutly no valid argument that says doing this is code compliant unless the fireplace manufacter is ok with it

Why haven’t manufactures that approve their product to be used in such a way been sued? Or otherwise bothered?

 

[bholler]

Why haven’t manufactures that approve their product to be used in such a way been sued? Or otherwise bothered?

Because they covered themselves by saying it must be installed in a listed fireplace. As soon as you violate the instructions for that fireplace the listing is void and you are at that point not following either set of instructions.

 

[bholler]

Why haven’t manufactures that approve their product to be used in such a way been sued? Or otherwise bothered?

Do you have anything in the code books that says you can ignore the instructions for one ul listed appliance as long as the instructions for another says its ok?

 

[Patanna]

Thank you for all the informative replies. My pocketbook is groaning. Looks like the only SAFE way is to go the expensive route. I could just leave it alone, but then it is merely decorative because the functionality is so crappy I can't stand it. Any idea what percent in home improvement value I would recoup? Guesses?

I bought this house when prices were extremely low, and I plan to stay here at least another 10 years, probably more. I might never move from here. So I am seriously considering forking over the $ for the SAFE upgrade, RegencyEX90 Excalibur Fireplace.

Any comments on the 2 chimney options? Air cooled vs. 2100 solid packed.

Thank you!

 

[webby3650]

Because they covered themselves by saying it must be installed in a listed fireplace. As soon as you violate the instructions for that fireplace the listing is void and you are at that point not following either set of instructions.

None of the inserts we carry that are ZC approved by the manufacturer list a specific model of Fireplace. In fact Lopi/Travis is the only one that specifically mentions a particular brand that their units are approved for. Which is approved for pretty much every major manufacturer, past and present. They do give specific details about the installation. Fireplace must be UL listed, Not altering the unit, full liner etc...

 

[bholler]

None of the inserts we carry that are ZC approved by the manufacturer list a specific model of Fireplace. In fact Lopi/Travis is the only one that specifically mentions a particular brand that their units are approved for. Which is approved for pretty much every major manufacturer, past and present. They do give specific details about the installation. Fireplace must be UL listed, Not altering the unit, full liner etc...

So again where does it say in any code book that the instructions for one ul listed appliance can override the instructions of another??? And how can they possibly say that their insert is safe to put in a zc fireplace without testing it in that fireplace?

 

[bholler]

Thank you for all the informative replies. My pocketbook is groaning. Looks like the only SAFE way is to go the expensive route. I could just leave it alone, but then it is merely decorative because the functionality is so crappy I can't stand it. Any idea what percent in home improvement value I would recoup? Guesses?

I bought this house when prices were extremely low, and I plan to stay here at least another 10 years, probably more. I might never move from here. So I am seriously considering forking over the $ for the SAFE upgrade, RegencyEX90 Excalibur Fireplace.

Any comments on the 2 chimney options? Air cooled vs. 2100 solid packed.

Thank you!

To me unless your zc fireplace allows for an insert which most do not. The only option is replacement. You will not regain much if any of the value on resale but you will save money on heat.

And go with the solid pack chimney it is far superior to the air cooled crap.

 

[webby3650]

The manufacturer of the insert has put it through extensive testing. You aren't comfortable doing anything that is absolutely by the books, I get it. You can’t go around tearing down peoples fireplaces because you don’t put any trust in testing, other than the minimal testing the ZC Fireplace did.

 

[bholler]

The manufacturer of the insert has put it through extensive testing. You aren't comfortable doing anything that is absolutely by the books, I get it. You can’t go around tearing down peoples fireplaces because you don’t put any trust in testing, other than the minimal testing the ZC Fireplace did.

What testing did they do to what standard? What fireplace was it tested in? Was that fireplace past its intended life like many of the fireplaces people want put inserts in?

It isnt that i am uncomfortable doing anything that isnt absolutly by the books. It is that i am not willing to do something that is clearly not allowed by code. I am not willing to risk my buisness or the safety of my customers on an untested install that doesnt meet minimum code. If you are willing to do that its on you but i just cant.

 

[thechimneysweep]

Bholler, when you install an insert in a masonry fireplace, do you require the insert to have been listed for installation in that exact fireplace?

 

[Patanna]

To me unless your zc fireplace allows for an insert which most do not. The only option is replacement. You will not regain much if any of the value on resale but you will save money on heat.

And go with the solid pack chimney it is far superior to the air cooled crap.

Thank you for your feedback. The installer said that in NE Florida the air cooled chimney is fine, but solid pack should be used in colder climates. Does that make sense? TY.

 

[bholler]

Thank you for your feedback. The installer said that in NE Florida the air cooled chimney is fine, but solid pack should be used in colder climates. Does that make sense? TY.

Nope. The air cooled will work but no where near as well as the insulated stuff.

 

[bholler]

Bholler, when you install an insert in a masonry fireplace, do you require the insert to have been listed for installation in that exact fireplace?

No but it has to be built to code. Masonry fireplaces are not ul listed appliances and dont have instructions stating that only approved accessories and components can be used with the system. Zero clearance units are. And code clearly says you need to follow all instructions for ul listed appliances and components.

So since no one else can answer the question i will ask you. Were does it say in any code book that the instructions for one ul listed appliance can override the instructions of another ul listed appliance?

 

[Patanna]

Nope. The air cooled will work but no where near as well as the insulated stuff.

Darn. More $ up in smoke. But I really want the fireplace to work right. Our enjoyment and comfort over the next 10+ years is worth something.

 

[bholler]

Darn. More $ up in smoke. But I really want the fireplace to work right. Our enjoyment and comfort over the next 10+ years is worth something.

It will work with the air cooled stuff. And if it is installed correctly it is just as safe. But it is cooled not insulated. That means less draft and more potential for creosote build up

 

[Ludlow]

Arent prefab and ZC two different animals? Prefab to me is set into a masonry hearth and chimney. ZC is just framed into the walls.

 

[bholler]

Arent prefab and ZC two different animals? Prefab to me is set into a masonry hearth and chimney. ZC is just framed into the walls.

No a heat form is set into masonry generally zero clearance and prefab fireplaces are the ssme thing but i am sure there are some who call heatforms prefab.

 

[bholler]

And i just noticed the comment from expert 1 about burning soft wood. He clearly is no expert.

 

[Ludlow]

If he is telling you to avoid certain kinds of wood notably cherry, then Id avoid him.

 

[begreen]

ex = the unknown factor
spert = a drip under pressure