Warring Fireplace Experts...need advice

[David.Ervin]

no cherry (which burns too hot)

This alone makes me question "Expert" #1 highly - Cherry is a nice shoulder season wood, not a high BTU wood like oak, hickory, or osage. Also great in the smoker with a pork shoulder, but I digress.

Expert #2 is right - don't install a stove or wood burner in a manner in which it hasn't been tested and certified. Even if it's "OK", your home owners insurance isn't going to be excited about a damage claim if they can even remotely point to the stove and its installation. Get a couple more quotes on different setups similar to what #2 is proposing if the cost is an issue.

 

[thechimneysweep]

So since no one else can answer the question i will ask you. Were does it say in any code book that the instructions for one ul listed appliance can override the instructions of another ul listed appliance?

Here's one to consider: The Uniform Mechanical Code requires that every masonry fireplace have a damper, but the listing on the insert requires a liner extending, at minimum, to the first flue tile, which requires removal of that damper. Do you feel that the liner requirement for the insert overrides the damper requirement for the fireplace?

 

[bholler]

Here's one to consider: The Uniform Mechanical Code requires that every masonry fireplace have a damper, but the listing on the insert requires a liner extending, at minimum, to the first flue tile, which requires removal of that damper. Do you feel that the liner requirement for the insert overrides the damper requirement for the fireplace?

Yes because the insert is a ul listed appliance which can override code. This isnt that complicated. But you still havnt answered my question.

 

[thechimneysweep]

That's because your question assumes that there will always be a listing conflict, which isn't the case. If the insert in question carries a blanket listing for installation in any manufactured fireplace, then that is the pertinent listing for that application, UNLESS the listing for the fireplace specifically forbids inserts.

In the US, zero clearance fireplaces are listed to the UL 127 standard. Nowhere in that listing standard can I find any language that might forbid installation of an insert that carries a blanket listing for that application. While a given ZC manufacturer might take a CYA stance against inserts not specifically tested in a given model and include a statement to that effect in the ZC's owner's manual, that statement doesn't create a listing conflict, or affect the code status of the finished installation.

 

[bholler]

That's because your question assumes that there will always be a listing conflict, which isn't the case. If the insert in question carries a blanket listing for installation in any manufactured fireplace, then that is the pertinent listing for that application, UNLESS the listing for the fireplace specifically forbids inserts.

In the US, zero clearance fireplaces are listed to the UL 127 standard. Nowhere in that listing standard can I find any language that might forbid installation of an insert that carries a blanket listing for that application. While a given ZC manufacturer might take a CYA stance against inserts not specifically tested in a given model and include a statement to that effect in the ZC's owner's manual, that statement doesn't create a listing conflict, or affect the code status of the finished installation.

No i am not assuming there is always a listing conflict. There are several zc fireplaces that do allow for inserts to be installed in them. But the vast majority either clearly say no inserts or say only approved components and accessories can be used with their system.

Now code clearly says that when dealing with listed components or appliances they must be installed according to the manufacturer's instructions. And if the fire place says no inserts or no non approved accessories you cannont do it according to code.

So again how do you justify ignoring the instructions for a ul listed appliance when you are clearly required to follow them by code???

 

[bholler]

Oh you say inserts are listed to be installed in a zc fireplace. What listing would that be? The people i have talked to from ul and testing labs have said the only listing that could apply would be the one for a manufactured fireplace. And in order to get that listing the insert and fireplace would have to be tested together as a complete system. Insert manufacturer's cant just make up a listing that doesnt exist. But they do it because they have covered their buts in the wording of their manuals and they know all liability is placed on the installers who choose to ignore code in favor of a quick buck.

 

[bholler]

Ul 127 does say the unit must be installed as tested. That means unless it was tested with that insert in it the fireplace would not be listed and then you wouldnt even be following the inserts instructions. And if anything goes wrong it all falls on the installer.