Were we crazy to stay at home? (or CO detector works...)

[Gooserider]

Wednesday night we had a bit of excitement. The GF loaded the stove just before coming upstairs to bed. Some how she either left the stove door sitting open or didn't latch it properly and it sprang open later. I thought I smelled a bit of smoke and asked her, but she said it had just puffed a bit whle she was loading it (not unusual for that stove)

Fortuneately a few days ago, I had moved our one CO detector from the garage into a plug in the living room near the stove - this was a low cost unit that just has an alarm, but no readout for actual concentration.

About 2:00 AM the CO detector went off... Stumbling downstairs to investigate, I found the stove door open, and the room full of smoke. :gulp: I refilled the stove and closed the stove door, and opened the front and porch doors to get some ventilation. (Of course she has to do this on a night when it's 14* out, not when it was reasonably warm.... :roll: ) Then, after ripping the alarm out of the wall to make it shut the ..... up, I went back upstairs to let her know what the problem was and figure out what we should do,

I told her what I'd found and done, and pointed out that the normal advice when the CO alarm sounds is to LEAVE, quickly...

She didn't want to and pointed out that since I'd fixed the problem, and was venting the place, the CO level was going to be dropping. Also that neither of us seemed to be showing any signs of CO poisoning such as headaches, etc.

I still said that I felt we should leave, but agreed that it wasn't a real appealing notion to have to go $pend the re$t of the night in a motel.

She then suggested that I should move the alarm into the bedroom to see what the CO level was up there, and that if the alarm went off in the BR she would agree that we should leave....

Back downstairs, (Brrr... it's getting COLD down here....) grab the alarm, go back upstairs and plug it in. Alarm sounded once as part of it's self test, but didn't make any more noise, so we went back to sleep.


Obviously we are still alive, so in retrospect it was OK, but I'm still wondering if we did the right thing... Were we nuts to have stayed around? Should I have been more insistent on us leaving? As a side note, is there a "tolerable" level of CO that doesn't indicate that one should automatically run away?

BTW, the cheapo CO detector is still plugged into the bedroom wall. The next day I went to the local HW store, and purchased a Kidde Nighthawk CO detector with a readout so that I can get a measurement of the actual level if we ever have another problem.

(Smoked) Gooserider

 

[Rick]

Your safest bet would've been to call the fire department out. They would've metered your residence and vented if neccessary. Although, I must admit that I am guilty of just opening up some windows for a while myself.

 

[stoveguy2esw]

rick's right , call the FD, ventilate and start over heating the house, CO is no joke, glad to see you picked up that nighthawk, good unit. was it just an "oops" that had the door open ? how was the stove behaving when you shut the door? im sure i speak for all that im glad you at least had that "el cheapo" CO detector, it might have saved your life. im pretty anal about smoke and Co detectors with my customers , as im sure the pro's in the forum are as well, happy as hello that you guys are alright

 

[DriftWood]

Did you have any smoke alarms in your stove room. When my fire place glass broke a smoke alarm awoke us to the same problems you had. I now have two nightHawks one out side the bed booms, and one in the basement . like my wife just said " There is a fire burning in the middle of our living room. All kinds of things are possible with a stove in your living room."

 

[Gooserider]

Mike - The stove was working fine for me before and after, I have no reason to think it was anything other than an "oops," so I'm as certain as one can be about these things that I don't have any other problems. The fire looked normal when I found the door open, mostly coals which is what I would have expected at that stage of the burn. I threw a few more splits in since I was there, and closed the door - no problems.

Driftwood, we have three hardwired Firex smokes in the house, I put them in around 2000, to replace the originals that came with the house, so they are about 6 or seven years old, but Firex says they should be good for 10 years old before replacing. One is on the 2nd floor in the same open space that has the stove on the first floor, but it never went off.

I acutally had a thread about them a week or two ago which is what inspired me to move the cheapo detector - I also tested the smokes (passed). I'd like to replace them with combo units, but Firex tech support says that they don't currently have a combo unit that meets current MA code requirements that the alarm talk... They have one in testing they say will be out in a few months so I am waiting for that. I haven't looked at other brands since I'm not sure if they'd interchange with the wiring for the Firex units. (I hate technology lock-ins!) When I do get the replacement units, I'm planning to put the cheapo in the laundry room near the gas drier, and move the Nighthawk down to the furnace room where we have the gas furnace and H/W heaters.

In the meantime I figure the Nighthawk in the stove room and the cheapo in the bedroom will keep us reasonably safe.

Gooserider

 

[Corey]

There is a breakdown of various CO levels at

http://www.coheadquarters.com/ZerotoMillion1.htm

I suspect the detector is probably set to alarm early enough to protect the most elderly, ahsmatic, smoker on the planet, plus having it in the stove room as opposed to the bedroom also allowed for an earler detection - which are not necessarily bad things. In the end, it seems like you reasoned your way through the situation and are still with us, so it doesn't seem like there was any harm done. I probably would have done the same thing!

Corey

 

[MrGriz]

I think I would have done just what you did. Since you were able to easily see the cause of the problem and correct it. I probably would not have gotten back to sleep too quickly though.

 

[Gooserider]

There is a breakdown of various CO levels at

http://www.coheadquarters.com/ZerotoMillion1.htm

I suspect the detector is probably set to alarm early enough to protect the most elderly, ahsmatic, smoker on the planet, plus having it in the stove room as opposed to the bedroom also allowed for an earler detection - which are not necessarily bad things. In the end, it seems like you reasoned your way through the situation and are still with us, so it doesn't seem like there was any harm done. I probably would have done the same thing!

Corey

Thanks for the CO chart pointer, that is very useful info. As to the sensitivity of CO alarms, the package on the one I just bought specifically said that it's alarm levels were based on the effects on healthy people, and that those with special sensitivity should consider getting more sensitive equipment.

I'm a bit annoyed by the UL prohibition on alarms that are NOT more sensitive, or even allowing displays of less than 30ppm concentrations as other than 0 - it seems to me like this is not serving a legitimate safety interest, though it may reduce the numbers of "false positive" alarms. Even the chart you pointed me at says "The health reasons for this are obscure" but to me it is bad that they seemingly don't want you to have the ability to detect a problem before it becomes serious. I can see legitimate reasons for having a minimum standard for sounding an alarm, but don't see why you can't have a current reading being displayed at any time.

Gooserider

 

[Shawn]

Interesting chart. I have two CO detectors - one just alarms and the other can display the PPM. The one with the display I keep in our basement rec room. In the basememt I have an ventless gas stove - which is rarely if ever used and two 90+ efficient furnaces (also rarely used this year!). The display shows the highest reading of 11 PPM. It won't display automatically until it reaches 30 PPM. In my case it's never been higher than 11PPM. I've also taken this unit up stairs and taken measurements in the room with the insert (and other rooms in the house)...still no change.

 

[DriftWood]

Mike -

Driftwood, we have three hardwired Firex smokes in the house, Gooserider

Are they photoelectric sensor or ionization sensor or DUAL SENSOR DETECTORS. Seems strange they would not sound.

 

[Gooserider]

Mike -

Driftwood, we have three hardwired Firex smokes in the house, Gooserider

Are they photoelectric sensor or ionization sensor or DUAL SENSOR DETECTORS. Seems strange they would not sound.

They are the ionization type I believe, definitely the radioactive type units. They are definitely working at least as far as the internal parts are concerned, I pushed the test button and got each to alarm (and set off the other two) maybe a week or two before.

Gooserider

 

[DriftWood]

Ionization sensors may respond slightly faster to flaming fires, whereas photoelectric sensors may respond slightly faster to mouldering fires. Notwithstanding these differences, to achieve UL listing, both alarms must be tested to the same standard and meet the same requirements. Since you can’t predict the type of fire that will occur, installing both types of alarms in your home can enhance fire safety. Still they should both respond. I am now thinking about back up , redundant, Dual Sensor detector in my stove room one dual many not sound, the other dual might.

 

[Gooserider]

Ionization sensors may respond slightly faster to flaming fires, whereas photoelectric sensors may respond slightly faster to mouldering fires. Notwithstanding these differences, to achieve UL listing, both alarms must be tested to the same standard and meet the same requirements. Since you can’t predict the type of fire that will occur, installing both types of alarms in your home can enhance fire safety. Still they should both respond. I am now thinking about back up, redundant, detectors in my stove room one many not sound, the other might.

I was a bit surprised that the smokes hadn't gone off, but it's possible that the smoke hadn't gotten strong enough near the detector to set it off - it is in almost the diagonally opposite corner of the room from the stove in all three dimensions... When the CO detector (about 5' from the stove) went off, I was smelling smoke in the BR, but when I went out on the landing where the smoke detector is, the visible smoke was mostly still down at the first floor level. It was about like looking over a fog bank.

They do make dual sensor detectors now, and I think some codes even require them, but I'm not sure how much extra it's worth to pay for that level of redundancy. ALL safety measures have some level of costs, and since most of us have only finite resources, it is necessary to choose between them. The question then becomes one of comparing how much "bang for the buck" you get out of a given measure, and possibly what it's own risk cost is. Assume that your redundant detector costs $50 extra - not a bad amount, but before you run down to the store for one, ask how much extra protection it gives - assume each detector catches only 90% of the fires, this means that the second detector is only going to give you AT BEST a 9% reduction in an already pretty low risk. Ask yourself if there might not be something else that you could get for $50 instead that would give a greater reduction in risk - perhaps a couple of fire extinguishers, or maybe an escape ladder for the 2nd floor bedrooms, or....

My big objection to legal requirements in regards to codes is not the safety aspects of it, but the fact that the law prevents you from evaluating the specific circumstances that apply to your scenario and making your own choice about the level of risk reduction you are willing to accept.

Gooserider

 

[DriftWood]

"Assume that your redundant detector costs $50"

The new photoelectric sensor and ionization sensor dual senor detectors I got off ebaY were 2 for $29.00 delivered so cost is not the issue. I just have a problem thinking one smoke detector between the stove and my bed room door may not be enough should it fail for what ever reason. I do understand what you are saying, I am not flying to the moon, I may not need 5 back up systems. And I was happy with one duel detector before reading your post. I'm thinking different now.

 

[Gooserider]

"Assume that your redundant detector costs $50"

The new photoelectric sensor and ionization sensor dual senor detectors I got off ebaY were 2 for $29.00 delivered so cost is not the issue. I just have a problem thinking one smoke detector between the stove and my bed room door may not be enough should it fail for what ever reason. I do understand what you are saying, I am not flying to the moon, I may not need 5 back up systems. And I was happy with one duel detector before reading your post. I'm thinking different now.

Well the cost was just as a point of discussion, the same arguement still applies regardless of the amount. However, I would point out that code calls for both smoke and CO detectors (possibly in one unit) and in my case,

ONE of those systems did sound the alarm - does it matter that both didn't?

Is there any reason to think that if the CO detector had failed to go off, that the smoke wouldn't have gone off within a few minutes?

Logic says that one alarm had to be first, that it was the CO detector in this case didn't mean the smoke alarm had failed. After all, we had a CO problem for sure, but the smoke didn't actually indicate a fire that was cause for an alarm since it was contained in the stove where it belonged....

If you had a similar situation with two smoke detectors, only one of which triggered, would you automatically assume the second one was defective?

This isn't intended to make a joke of your concerns, just saying that in my opiniion what happenned to me doesn't justify a redundant smoke alarm setup. However, if you don't already have them, I'd say you would be better off getting your alarm redundancy by adding a CO detector instead of a second smoke alarm.

Gooserider

 

[sgcsalsero]

Just my .02 . . I have been buying First Alerts from Target past few years, 'fortunately' they have only gone off during daytime (burning bacon for one)

Smoke and CO
(broken link removed to http://www.target.com/gp/detail.html/sr=1-4/qid=1169429706/ref=sr_1_4/602-8820093-4231825?ie=UTF8&asin=B00005OU73)
I think I have bought 3 and paid no more than $30, on sale for $25 once

Dual (ionization and photoelectric)
I noticed local Walmart has the First Alert dual sensor for $20, model 302CN, didn't notice at local Target but pretty sure the price is same

So what was the outcome the next day . . I usually end cleaning up the kitchen er similar when I smoke out the room/house . . . that and maybe a run for chocolate doughnuts

 

[Gooserider]

Just my .02 . . I have been buying First Alerts from Target past few years, 'fortunately' they have only gone off during daytime (burning bacon for one)

Smoke and CO
(broken link removed to http://www.target.com/gp/detail.html/sr=1-4/qid=1169429706/ref=sr_1_4/602-8820093-4231825?ie=UTF8&asin=B00005OU73)
I think I have bought 3 and paid no more than $30, on sale for $25 once

Dual (ionization and photoelectric)
I noticed local Walmart has the First Alert dual sensor for $20, model 302CN, didn't notice at local Target but pretty sure the price is same

So what was the outcome the next day . . I usually end cleaning up the kitchen er similar when I smoke out the room/house . . . that and maybe a run for chocolate doughnuts

Next day the house was COLD - the GF even turned the furnace on for a while, but didn't notice the starting point. The place was still smelling strongly of smoke, it still is, but otherwise no lasting effects.

No strange food cravings - after all, we only burn WOOD you know... %-P

As to the alarms, those sound like nice units, but current MA code does require them to "announce the problem in english" which may be a problem for some. I just want to stay with the hardwired setup we already have, and Firex doesn't have an appropriate model out yet. Once they come out, I plan to replace the current smokes with the new multi-function replacement units. (though I will probably wait a few months as the heating season will be over by then, and I can wait for the price to drop after the initial demand.

Gooserider