What are you willing to do to help?

[kevinmoelk]

Would you write a letter to your congressional representative or state senator?

Would you be willing to help out with an old stove vs. new stove burning demonstration?

Would you donate money to the cause?

Would you be willing to do free inspections to help educate others about clearance to combustibles, safe installs, etc?

Would you change in your old stove for a new one if there was a good tax credit involved?

Would you help educate folks about safe forest practices?


Just wanted to get some feedback on the above ideas. I'm going to refrain from making any statements right now. Just wanted to open up the floor and maybe get a good discussion going.

-Kevin

 

[restorer]

Would you write a letter to your co ngressional representative or state senator?

Would you be willing to help out with an old stove vs. new stove burning demonstration?

Would you donate money to the cause?

Would you be willing to do free inspections to help educate others about clearance to combustibles, safe installs, etc?

Would you change in your old stove for a new one if there was a good tax credit involved?

Would you help educate folks about safe forest practices?


Just wanted to get some feedback on the above ideas. I'm going to refrain from making any statements right now. Just wanted to open up the floor and maybe get a good discussion going.

-Kevin

I'd do all but the last two. Won't give up "old stove" until a better and more efficient one comes along that I can seriously afford. And last, I don't have any idea beyond my boy scout training about forest safety. I live in a desert

 

[elkimmeg]

The isnpections are a dicey issue say I did an inspection and found it to be in violation , then what, I make them take it out or my inspection in another town is meaning less without being hired by the town unless I were a state inspector. If that were the case I would work with the local inspectors and home owners to safer installs
Yes I would be willing to help out as I'm doing every day here as are the many many others More important than the inspection would be a pre comference before the permit to advoid pitfalls explain what is required In the real world the stove is installed then the permit is applied for Education is most effective before the purchase and installation I do this every day If a person wants to come in my office and discuss their plans and situation.

As for installations I'm doing that now but encourge other to be helpfull
Writting or typing not my strongest suit

Wrench and other members are exchanging PM's and e-mails
It is my feeling that the media and politicians are looking into alternative energy usages. Modern search engines point to here as I noted in another post.


What a question for discussion is what can we members of the hearth do, to shape future directions of our lifestyle and wood/ pellet/coal burning?
do we sit back and see what others do
or do we form a united message and get that to the public. Can be be leaders or should we be followers. Personally I rather be heard before being told.

News, the press, has yet another black eye, where an OWB is in the middle of a neighborhood squabble Another town is going to ban them.

It won't be long before that inuendo is pointed at wood stoves. The message and gaining public acceptance,

is these modern stoves are not your fathers smoke belching beast of the past

todays stoves are cleaner safer and with education and proper burning practices a viable alternative We now can burn Bio logs far cleaner than anytime in the past
If pellets and bio logs can m be made as an viable economic solution wood cleaner burning woodstoves can be burnt in more populated areas
we have to let the public know we are greener we promote clean burning practices we promote buttoning up homes to conserve the energy we use.

Well Wrench did I hit it , buts that's why we need forum participation? What do you members think?

 

[elkimmeg]

Want proof of the reaches of the hearth, goggle damper blockoff plate

or click on this link

http://www.google.com/search?q=damp...ient=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official

or
Hearth.com is the world leader in information for gas and wood fireplaces, inserts and freestanding stoves, chimney caps and pellet stoves, corn stove and ...

 

[GVA]

True Elk... The media however at least here in the northeast helped promote pellet stoves after Katrina. I remember 2-3 days of all 4 major news outlets saying go out and get a pellet stove and save lots of money over oil and NG. The result No pellets for 2 months and then prices going up from $175 a ton to $325 a ton (at least by me). Now unfortunatly there has been a black eye on the pellet industry on the east coast, now the west coast is starting to go through the same thing. I remember people asking me 4 years ago about pellet stoves and I would explain how they work and all the pro's and con's.. And after there was a shortage my attitude became alot more reserved telling people vague answers, maybe I was a bit selfish...
But These manufactures need to be figuring out a way to help the situation too, otherwise it will be harder to get the average homeowner to buy a stove that they have to keep feeding fo 2-3k, or a new furnace that they just need to turn a knob on the wall, set it and forget it.......
As far as the wood burning stove situation, not all people have the time or interest to go out and cut or split wood and therefore these people would be susceptible to the supply and demand pricing that the wood dealers see fit. This would also cause people to chose the set it and forget it attitude....
Here's an example.......
(broken link removed to http://www.mywoodenergy.com/2.html)
and these are local guy's here, close to Turner and Burner. I am sure that he doesn't use them but other people probably do.

 

[GVA]

Guy's I'm not trying to squelch the ideas I'm just pointing out some things that need to be looked at. As far as the supply and demand situation that will most likely occur if everybody gets a wood stove....
An Idea here my community has a compost area for leaves and brush.... Brush up to 2" diameter...
Why not allow people to dispose of stuff over 2" and have essentially a community woodpile?
I hate to see this thread end so quick...
Anyone............Buhler........Buhler.........Anyone.......

 

[kevinmoelk]

Supply will meet demand, eventually. Price will stabilize as the demand can be met, and competition will breed lower prices overall. Remember how much computers used to cost?

Inspections are trickly I admit. I was thinking more along the lines of someone coming in and taking a quick peek to see if anything were obviously dangerous... like dryer vent out of the side of the house for example!

Clearly inspections walk a fine line because there are those who make their living doing this, and also those who are obligated to enforce law. If I were doing an inspection let's say I spend 1/2 an hour poking around and talking to the owners... planting ideas in their head. And at the end of the free inspection, I hand the homeowners a list of things I found wrong (if any) and then a list of qualified professional inspectors and suggest they go one step further and get a more detailed inspection.

My feeling is just that there are many home inspectors who don't know the first thing about inspecting a wood burning appliance. And that there exist many homes (probably many nice high dollar homes) that may have an old installation that is unsafe. It is my belief that if folks KNEW that their old stove that they've been using for 20 years is unsafe, that they will think about upgrading and/or fixing whatever the problem may be. Even if nothing wrong were found, inspections would reveal many old smoke belchers to which the owners could be educated about the newer more efficient appliances.

After I added my stove and spoke with my family about it, they had no idea why I was so excited. They ALL had that image of the old black metal box with the dial dampers. It was only after I sent some pictures that they could relate to my excitement. My install impressed my brother in NJ so much in fact that he is looking around and considering a wood burning appliance.

Education is contagious.



Here is what I would think would be a great program and combines many of the ideas all in one.

Organize an "Old stove vs. New stove" campaign. Demonstrations would be given say once or twice a year. Media would be invited. An ad would be put in the paper. Churches and other organizations would be notified to draw people to attend.

The demonstrations would be non commercial. Much like Tom Oyen staged in Seattle years ago, a similar demonstration would be staged all across the country. Ideally it would be done all on the same day to have a broader media impact.

The demonstration would also be an ideal time to distribute a packet of material that would anything you wanted... from harvesting wood, hearth dealers, letter to sign and send to politicians, firewood dealers, chimney sweeps, safe ash disposal, etc. Any information that was relevant to the wood burning life and local issues.

-Kevin

 

[stoveguy2esw]

Would you write a letter to your co ngressional representative or state senator?

Would you be willing to help out with an old stove vs. new stove burning demonstration?

Would you donate money to the cause?

Would you be willing to do free inspections to help educate others about clearance to combustibles, safe installs, etc?

Would you change in your old stove for a new one if there was a good tax credit involved?

Would you help educate folks about safe forest practices?


Just wanted to get some feedback on the above ideas. I'm going to refrain from making any statements right now. Just wanted to open up the floor and maybe get a good discussion going.

-Kevin

I'd do all but the last two. Won't give up "old stove" until a better and more efficient one comes along that I can seriously afford. And last, I don't have any idea beyond my boy scout training about forest safety. I live in a desert

forest safety taught by the boy scouts of america when done by the materials provided is indeed great training (former boy scout and proud of it) one of the best survival manuals you can find i still have mine. shame that the "nintendo generation" is missing out on scouting. america without boy, and girl scouts would be a lesser nation

 

[stoveguy2esw]

ok got my scouting plug out of the way

as for the meat of the question, some i would do , some not , inspections for instance , im not qualified to do them , i cold miss somthing that a trained inspector like ELK would catch. my recommendation even if i looked at a setup would be to have a trained inspector look at it even if i didnt catch somthing (im not trained but im not a dummy on this) demonstrations (all for it) contacting my congresscritter ( he knows my nickname, im on him a lot , he does a great job though , no complaints)

note: everybody should take time to send a brief message to their representitives if they are not happy with somthing its your right for one thing ( after all you hired him) also , this information is looked at, especially if enough people contact them (staffers read it and prepare breifs about it) getting government informed properly is the most important of the list posted in this thread. look at it this way, if they understood what we do about wood smoke issues , would they be looking to shorten chimneys like they are in torrington ct. (different post) contacting your rep is easy click this link to do so (broken link removed to http://www.house.gov/writerep/) get involved cause if we dont , think of who will.

 

[kevinmoelk]

Good points stoveguy. Yes, we should all be in contact with our representative more. Maybe I will draft a letter here in a while so people can simply copy and paste the letter, sign it, and e-mail it to their rep, senator, etc. I'm not sure what important details should be put in the letter, so PM me folks and give me some ideas.

The demonstrations I believe are key. As I hinted at with the example of my brother, most folks just have no idea about what wood burning options exist. My brother lives outside of NYC, and so is considering a pellet stove since wood is not readily available and he doesn't want the mess or work of processing his own wood. The prospect of man-made logs could really make an impact in urban areas where cord wood may not be readily available, or where heavy smoke is an issue. I'm working on my brother to buy a woodstove and then use man made logs, but he's not totally convinced yet.

I was a boy scout too Mike. Made 1st class, then I found out about girls and cars, and it was over for me, lol. I still regard my time as a Scout to have been a life altering period in my childhood. Beyond some basic camping skills and community service, the most important value I gained was a deep respect for nature and wildlife. To this day, whenever I go camping I take extra trash bags with me to clean up campsites. I'm sad to say that I've yet to return from a camping trip without at least one full bag of someone elses trash, usually two.

PM me some ideas for my letter folks, and I'll get a draft going.

-Kevin

 

[wg_bent]

Well, I've written to my State Senator a few times, and never got anything but an automated response.

 

[stoveguy2esw]

Well, I've written to my State Senator a few times, and never got anything but an automated response.

dont think they are ignoring you, unless they arent who they say they are , in which case you fire them (voting for another candidate) i get automated responses to all of the ones i send , but i have also gotten actual responses as well (usually from a staffer (thats what they do) saying that my message has been read and is being looked into by the rep. like anything else, from a mechanic , to a stove dealer, some are better at service than others ( maybe we should send craig to washington) i'd vote for him

as for the scouting i learned land navigation as a scout, when i was in basic training in the army instructors would ask me how i was so good at map reading , resections ,declination diagrams and such. learned it all in the scouts. had a great scout leader, he was ex military veteran, and former drill sgt. needless to say when my time came to enter the army i was several steps ahead because of my years of scouting

 

[wg_bent]

Well, I've written to my State Senator a few times, and never got anything but an automated response.

dont think they are ignoring you, unless they arent who they say they are , in which case you fire them (voting for another candidate) i get automated responses to all of the ones i send , but i have also gotten actual responses as well (usually from a staffer (thats what they do) saying that my message has been read and is being looked into by the rep. like anything else, from a mechanic , to a stove dealer, some are better at service than others ( maybe we should send craig to washington) i'd vote for him

as for the scouting i learned land navigation as a scout, when i was in basic training in the army instructors would ask me how i was so good at map reading , resections ,declination diagrams and such. learned it all in the scouts. had a great scout leader, he was ex military veteran, and former drill sgt. needless to say when my time came to enter the army i was several steps ahead because of my years of scouting

Honestly, I don't expect an answer, just that my position on issue XYZ is logged and they know that people are thinking about it.
My issues:
1. VW TDI's are not allowed to be sold in NY (but a Ford F350 is ???? Uhh what the hell?)
2. NY is near the bottom of the heap on using renewable fuels for electric. >:-(

 

[Gooserider]

Would you write a letter to your congressional representative or state senator?

If I thought it likely to get anywhere, I'd write a letter urging them NOT to further interfere with the woodburning community. This is NOT a proper function of government, and ammounts to stealing from non-wood burners. If we weren't being forced to pay for all the other special interest axe grinding out there, we would have more than enough to afford to do it without needing the gov't to stick their nose into it and screw things up.
The late Harry Brown, Libertarian Presidential Candidate had a great offer - Would you give up your favorite gov't program if it got rid of several others? I would and do.

The proper function of gov't is to protect it's citizens from crime, and foreign invasion, and that is ALL... I would refer you to Bastiat's "The Law"

Would you be willing to help out with an old stove vs. new stove burning demonstration?

Probably if being done by private parties.

Would you donate money to the cause?

Define "the cause" - If it means to lobby the gov't to steal from others, NO! If it means a private, non-gov't funded charitable activity (such as the donor stove program) possibly, though given my finances, I'd be more inclined to donate labor.

Would you be willing to do free inspections to help educate others about clearance to combustibles, safe installs, etc?

If they were VOLUNTARY on the part of the inspectee, and did NOT involve forcing them to correct any percieved deficiencies. I'd also want to make sure any inspectors got a pretty good amount of training and had sufficient protection against liability if they missed something or otherwise didn't get it perfect.

Would you change in your old stove for a new one if there was a good tax credit involved?

Maybe, but it would depend purely on the economics of the exchange. I would apply the exact same equations and considerations to the idea as I would if there were no credit and the new stove was that much less expensive.

Would you help educate folks about safe forest practices?

Possibly, Though I'm not sure how much such is needed above and beyond what is already being done, or how much good additional activities would do.

Just wanted to get some feedback on the above ideas. I'm going to refrain from making any statements right now. Just wanted to open up the floor and maybe get a good discussion going.
-Kevin

Well, this is where I'm coming from on it. Sorry to sound so negative, but the last thing I want to do with is deal with the gov't as that will reliably make things worse - google "Law of Unintended Consequences"

Private, non-gov't funded activities I can and will support, but I won't have anything to do with it once the gov't steps in, or gov't money appears.

Gooserider

 

[kevinmoelk]

Goose, like it or not the government is involved. The recent article someone posted about OWB is evidence of that. I'd bet money we'll see more crazy regulations dealing with wood burning as opposed to less government interference. It is my belief that legislators should at least be educated and understand the facts before making law. By sitting back and doing nothing, we are essentially allowing these yahoos to make poor decisions. I also believe that legislation could help to make some of the inefficient wood burning appliances compliant to EPA regs, and hence increase the industrys green image.

"The cause" would be public education, advancement of wood as a "green" fuel, and programs like the donor program.

Inspections, yes a tricky point indeed. Maybe it would be more effective to create a law that would require a "certified" inspection be done at the sale of a home. But I'm guessing you'd be against that kind of government interference, lol. Maybe a program similar to what Germany has? Just an idea.

I'm all for promoting demonstrations. I believe this would be a very effective tool in shaping public opinion and increasing sales for manufacturers. People just don't know what is out there in terms of clean burning wood appliances.

Tax credits? Sure I'm all for them, but that's going to be a tough sell for legislators.

Forest practices, well yeah, that's a little off topic I admit, but should go hand in hand with wood burning. The last thing we need is the forest getting all screwed up because there has been a marked increase in irresponsible wood burners.

Thanks for the input Goose. Be nice to hear from some more folks. My "letter to the legislator" is in draft form and being reviewed by a few folks. If anyone would like a preliminary copy just PM me and I'll send it over.

-Kevin

 

[restorer]

Well, I've written to my State Senator a few times, and never got anything but an automated response.

Did you include the check? Well, may take a few thou to get a real response.

 

[Gooserider]

Goose, like it or not the government is involved. The recent article someone posted about OWB is evidence of that. I'd bet money we'll see more crazy regulations dealing with wood burning as opposed to less government interference. It is my belief that legislators should at least be educated and understand the facts before making law. By sitting back and doing nothing, we are essentially allowing these yahoos to make poor decisions. I also believe that legislation could help to make some of the inefficient wood burning appliances compliant to EPA regs, and hence increase the industrys green image.

The government is involved, but that doesn't mean I want to make it get further involved. Legislators are dangerous at best, and even the best of education is unlikely to keep them from making poor decisions. I see this constantly in every other aspect of politics that I see, no reason to expect the wood burning scene to be any different.

"The cause" would be public education, advancement of wood as a "green" fuel, and programs like the donor program.

So long as the gov't stays out of it, fine...

Inspections, yes a tricky point indeed. Maybe it would be more effective to create a law that would require a "certified" inspection be done at the sale of a home. But I'm guessing you'd be against that kind of government interference, lol. Maybe a program similar to what Germany has? Just an idea.

I'm unfamiliar with the German programs, though some of their past programs are hardly ones I'd want to emulate. I would oppose any inspection law that would interfere with sale of the home and continued use / possession of all contents, so long as things are accurately described, and legal for the current occupants.

I'm all for promoting demonstrations. I believe this would be a very effective tool in shaping public opinion and increasing sales for manufacturers. People just don't know what is out there in terms of clean burning wood appliances.

Privately sponsored and run demos are fine, I'd even let legislators watch!

Tax credits? Sure I'm all for them, but that's going to be a tough sell for legislators.

Tough sell to me as well - taxes should not be used as an implement of social engineering, but should be uniform. If the gov't can afford to give "credits" then it means they are taxing to much and need to lower the rates for EVERYONE equally.

Forest practices, well yeah, that's a little off topic I admit, but should go hand in hand with wood burning. The last thing we need is the forest getting all screwed up because there has been a marked increase in irresponsible wood burners.

What I do on my land is my business, what is done on others land is the land owner's business, and outside abusers can be dealt with by existing rules on tresspass, etc... Education on best practices does little harm, but is of limited relevance to many burners - if you are purchasing wood rather than cutting it yourself, then the issue is with the wood dealers, not the burners. I do a mix, but have a strong interest in keeping up my property value, which is a powerful incentive not to be irresponsible.

Thanks for the input Goose. Be nice to hear from some more folks. My "letter to the legislator" is in draft form and being reviewed by a few folks. If anyone would like a preliminary copy just PM me and I'll send it over.
-Kevin

You are welcome. I appreciate that the discussion is staying polite, and hope that it stays that way because that way we all can learn more.

Gooserider