What are your energy costs in your area?

ABMax24

Minister of Fire
End-to-end cost per kW....
Natural gas is still cheaper because of economies of scale. Last gas plant we built was 270 million cuft per day, and it's fairly small, that heats a lot of homes, or generates a lot of electricity. If my math serves me correctly that's the equivalent of 75,000,000 kwh of electricity per day.
 

Seasoned Oak

Minister of Fire
Oct 17, 2008
7,155
Eastern Central PA

minux

Member
Nov 30, 2018
146
Baltimore, MD
Natural gas is still cheaper because of economies of scale. Last gas plant we built was 270 million cuft per day, and it's fairly small, that heats a lot of homes, or generates a lot of electricity. If my math serves me correctly that's the equivalent of 75,000,000 kwh of electricity per day.
I am attempting to figure out what we are calling "most green." Is "most green" humanity's ability to use residues? Are we looking at total costs from raw to product?
 

ABMax24

Minister of Fire
I am attempting to figure out what we are calling "most green." Is "most green" humanity's ability to use residues? Are we looking at total costs from raw to product?
Given this thread is about energy costs I'm assuming its referring to the end costs to the homeowner, regardless of environmental impact. It has just strayed into the topic of renewability.
 
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johneh

Minister of Fire
Dec 19, 2009
3,231
Eastern Ontario
The only thing i dont understand about that article is how they save $2500 a month on electric using 40% of the gas to produce power but only get $120 from the power co for the other 60% of the gas produced power.
Hay what do you expect from the CBC for them to really check what they are writing
that makes no sense.
Then about the same time, a Farmer in the Ottawa Valley did the same setup
only bigger (more cows) When it came time to hook up with Ontario Hydro
They refused because he was also supplying other farms close to him. He
still is. Wish I were close he charges a fraction of what Ontario Hydro
Charges ( Sorry Ontario Hydro is now called Hydro One change the name charge more)
 

bogieb

Minister of Fire
Oct 31, 2014
2,826
South Central NH
BTW many sawmills produce a portion or all of their power by burning their waste wood. The kilns need steam so the incremental extra fuel required to generate higher pressure steam is minimal compared to the 1000 btus per pound it takes to convert liquid water to steam. The higher pressure steam is then run through a back pressure turbine to generate electric power.

Maine Woods Pellets use a relatively new method of electric power generation that is integrated with their dryer. https://www.canadianbiomassmagazine.ca/maine-woods-pellet-co-producing-power-with-orc-system-6245/
Cool - that is the brand I burn the most - they are available from my local TSC and are the best value around.
 

bogieb

Minister of Fire
Oct 31, 2014
2,826
South Central NH
Then, aren't we back to pellets not being the cheapest?
For some areas - but not others. Pellets are the cheapest for what is available in my area, even figuring in the $20-40/month electricity costs to run the stoves.
 

rickwai

Minister of Fire
Nov 1, 2011
1,010
ohio
Yeah this thread was started to see what energy was the most economical for different regions. One interesting fact I learned was that electric rate of hydro produced power is approx. 1/2 of my rate. And I thought I was doing good at less that 10 cents per kwhr! I never intended to go into what source was the most green or least impact on the enviroment. I mean come on, We are burning wood pellets and corn that are at best 80% efficient and no filtration ect. I mean if you want to go all out throw your main breaker and turn off the valve on the propane tank and bundle up in your Carhartts. 100% green and 0 impact on the environment. :) I myself will keep running my propane furnace, pellet stove, corn stove and all my other propane fueled appliances. Oh and I will go out and fire up the burn pile when needed to get rid of excess cardboard and burnable junk
 

UpStateNY

Feeling the Heat
May 4, 2008
379
Catskill Mountains
Electric cost here in Hudson Valley 15 cents per KWH plus $19.70 basic monthly service charge. The 15 cents per KWH includes taxes delivery charge, and energy supply charges.

The electric break down for 15 cents per KWH is:
  • 4.2 cents energy cost to produce the electricity excluding any taxes
  • 10.8 cents cost to deliver the electricity including all taxes.
My Propane cost locked in at $1.45 a gallon. Propane co-op spot price is $1.70 a gallon. Other over $2.00
Fuel Oil is $2.17 a gallon was $1.79 a gallon a few months ago
Wood pellets big box stores $249 per ton. Over $325 per ton for quality pellets.

If you are paying under 10 cents per KWH, you should consider a modern heat pump for both AC and heat.

I don't understand how states can pay under 8 cents per KWH total cost, when I am being charged 10.8 cents per KWH just to deliver the electricity and not including cost of energy to produce it.
 

UpStateNY

Feeling the Heat
May 4, 2008
379
Catskill Mountains
Residential customers pay a service availability charge of $35.50 per month plus 5.42 cents per kilowatt hour.
Wow that is cheap electricity. I would love to get a copy of your monthly electric bill. I pay $19.50 flat monthly charge plus 15 cents KWH. Hell the cost to deliver the electricity is 10.8 cents per KWH for the electric poles and wires to my house. which is almost double what you pay for all your electricity.
 

Lordtimothy200

New Member
Dec 29, 2018
62
Nebraska
Went back and looked at the 'lectricity bill. For the first 1000 kwh it is .082 cents then after that it is .066 cents. Then $26 service charge, .12cents Roundup fee and of course the state sales tax of 5.5 percent and .5 percent county tax.
 

bholler

Chimney sweep
Staff member
Jan 14, 2014
23,030
central pa
You guys pretty much all skipped over wood. The wood itself is free for me. So I just have fuel and equipment costs and my time. For me it works out to about $200 to $250 a year. Plus when the power goes out I am warm and can cook.
 

tlc1976

Minister of Fire
Oct 7, 2012
595
Northwest Lower Michigan
You guys pretty much all skipped over wood. The wood itself is free for me. So I just have fuel and equipment costs and my time. For me it works out to about $200 to $250 a year. Plus when the power goes out I am warm and can cook.
Good point. In my old house, burning free wood I’d gather every year is the only way I survived.
 
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rickwai

Minister of Fire
Nov 1, 2011
1,010
ohio
You guys pretty much all skipped over wood. The wood itself is free for me. So I just have fuel and equipment costs and my time. For me it works out to about $200 to $250 a year. Plus when the power goes out I am warm and can cook.
Great point. My dad uses the wood out of the hedge rows to sublimit his heating. A win win, trees have to be cut back for the crops and most farmers just push it back. Dad cuts it up and uses it. I guess it would be a 2 fold benefit for the environment ect. The same amount of fuel ect would go into maintaining the tree rows and burning the wood saves on burning another fuel for the heat.
 
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UpStateNY

Feeling the Heat
May 4, 2008
379
Catskill Mountains
You guys pretty much all skipped over wood. The wood itself is free for me. So I just have fuel and equipment costs and my time. For me it works out to about $200 to $250 a year. Plus when the power goes out I am warm and can cook.
I did free wood for 5 years about 3 cords a year. Wood is never free my friend.
Costs of free wood:
  • big expensive chimney (this is is number 1 reason for me not to go back to wood)
  • wood stove
  • large real estate foot print in your house compared to pellet stove. (this is number 2 deal breaker for me)
  • truck to transport wood from wherever you found free wood
  • gas for truck moving the wood. This can be at least $100 in gas.
  • chain saw and new new chains
  • probably need a log splitter. I got real good at splitting wood with just a normal axe. Note its a lot of work splitting wood. I used my brother in-laws log splitter he made from scrap.
  • your time sawing, splitting, and moving wood 4 times if not more.
  • Emergency Room visit. Getting free wood can result in an accident. I never did but I came close a few times.
  • Clean the damn chimney once a year at least. My buddy almost lost his house with a chimney fire. Now they want over $10,000 to fix the chimney.
 
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bholler

Chimney sweep
Staff member
Jan 14, 2014
23,030
central pa
I did free wood for 5 years about 3 cords a year. Wood is never free my friend.
Costs of free wood:
  • big expensive chimney (this is is number 1 reason for me not to go back to wood)
  • wood stove
  • large real estate foot print in your house compared to pellet stove. (this is number 2 deal breaker for me)
  • truck to transport wood from wherever you found free wood
  • gas for truck moving the wood. This can be at least $100 in gas.
  • chain saw and new new chains
  • probably need a log splitter. I got real good at splitting wood with just a normal axe. Note its a lot of work splitting wood. I used my brother in-laws log splitter he made from scrap.
  • your time sawing, splitting, and moving wood 4 times if not more.
  • Emergency Room visit. Getting free wood can result in an accident. I never did but I came close a few times.
  • Clean the damn chimney once a year at least. My buddy almost lost his house with a chimney fire. Now they want over $10,000 to fix the chimney.
Yes I am fully aware it isn't free which is why I said it works out to about 200 to 250 a year for me.

But most of the expenses you list are not really extra expenses for many of us.

1. big expensive chimney. My house came with a chimney. It was useable as is but being in the profession I am in i relined it.

2. Woodstove yes you need a wood stove. But you need a heating appliance for whatever your heat source is. And decent woodstoves cost similar to most other heating appliances if not less.

3. Large real estate in the house??? No more than a pellet stove or furnace.

4. Truck yes you will need something to transport the wood but many of us already have trucks and would have one regardless of burning wood or not. Including my work trucks I actually have 4 to choose from one being the dump truck I usually use for wood.

5. Yes you need gas for truck saw splitter etc. That is part of the cost I listed.

6. Chainsaw yes you need a chainsaw but again I would need one anyway. I would not have spent as much on a saw just for property maintenance but I would have one regardless. And yes I buy a new chain every year or two.

7. Splitter yes I split the cost of a splitter with 4 other people 15 years ago. Had to put a motor on it a few years ago and split that cost as well. So not a large expense.

8. Yes it takes time. But I actually enjoy it. I also don't move it 4 times.

9. ER visit yes that is possible but also possible from many other things. I am careful but not very concerned about that.

10. Set up operated properly with good fuel once a year should be plenty. And the risk of chimney fire pretty low. The risk of structure fire almost non-existent. Why doesn't your buddy submit that damage to insurance? It is fire damage and should be covered.


I understand burning wood is not for everyone. It is allot of work but it can be extremely cheap and safe. And it is one of the most environmentally friendly.
 
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tlc1976

Minister of Fire
Oct 7, 2012
595
Northwest Lower Michigan
Yes I am fully aware it isn't free which is why I said it works out to about 200 to 250 a year for me.

But most of the expenses you list are not really extra expenses for many of us.

1. big expensive chimney. My house came with a chimney. It was useable as is but being in the profession I am in i relined it.

2. Woodstove yes you need a wood stove. But you need a heating appliance for whatever your heat source is. And decent woodstoves cost similar to most other heating appliances if not less.

3. Large real estate in the house??? No more than a pellet stove or furnace.

4. Truck yes you will need something to transport the wood but many of us already have trucks and would have one regardless of burning wood or not. Including my work trucks I actually have 4 to choose from one being the dump truck I usually use for wood.

5. Yes you need gas for truck saw splitter etc. That is part of the cost I listed.

6. Chainsaw yes you need a chainsaw but again I would need one anyway. I would not have spent as much on a saw just for property maintenance but I would have one regardless. And yes I buy a new chain every year or two.

7. Splitter yes I split the cost of a splitter with 4 other people 15 years ago. Had to put a motor on it a few years ago and split that cost as well. So not a large expense.

8. Yes it takes time. But I actually enjoy it. I also don't move it 4 times.

9. ER visit yes that is possible but also possible from many other things. I am careful but not very concerned about that.

10. Set up operated properly with good fuel once a year should be plenty. And the risk of chimney fire pretty low. The risk of structure fire almost non-existent. Why doesn't your buddy submit that damage to insurance? It is fire damage and should be covered.


I understand burning wood is not for everyone. It is allot of work but it can be extremely cheap and safe. And it is one of the most environmentally friendly.
In my case many of the costs were already taken care of.

My old house came with a functional woodstove and chimney. If installing new I’d go pellets instead. It took up no more space than a pellet stove.

I already long since had a trailer and tow vehicle. Same trailer I use now for pellets. I would cut at the in laws private land where we would go several weekends a summer anyway. Accounting for about 1.5x the gas used when towing, hauling 1.5 face cord each time cost me an extra $4 a face cord. And that was at $4 a gallon.

Gas and oil for the saw, not a lot. A 5 gallon can easily covered the season. chain every few years. Keep it out of the dirt. I paid $50 for a box of 3 Poulan sawsin pieces and made 2 working ones. Later the father in law gave me a Turbo Craftsman which interchanged with a lot of the Poulan parts. Sometimes we used his splitter but other times I just split it by hand at home whenever I felt like it. Stubborn pieces I split with the saw.

Stacking the wood then hauling it into the house, same as pellets. I hurt myself more with pellets than wood because the bags weigh more. I clean the pellet firebox and passages every 2 weeks, about the same as I cleaned the woodstove pipe. I cleaned the woodstove firebox every 2 months, about the same as I clean the pellet chimney.

Wood was more work to start a fire all the time and keep an eye on it, and more house cleaning, but since was cheap enough to get me by it was worth it. Now I can afford it I choose pellets.
 

bholler

Chimney sweep
Staff member
Jan 14, 2014
23,030
central pa
In my case many of the costs were already taken care of.

My old house came with a functional woodstove and chimney. If installing new I’d go pellets instead. It took up no more space than a pellet stove.

I already long since had a trailer and tow vehicle. Same trailer I use now for pellets. I would cut at the in laws private land where we would go several weekends a summer anyway. Accounting for about 1.5x the gas used when towing, hauling 1.5 face cord each time cost me an extra $4 a face cord. And that was at $4 a gallon.

Gas and oil for the saw, not a lot. A 5 gallon can easily covered the season. chain every few years. Keep it out of the dirt. I paid $50 for a box of 3 Poulan sawsin pieces and made 2 working ones. Later the father in law gave me a Turbo Craftsman which interchanged with a lot of the Poulan parts. Sometimes we used his splitter but other times I just split it by hand at home whenever I felt like it. Stubborn pieces I split with the saw.

Stacking the wood then hauling it into the house, same as pellets. I hurt myself more with pellets than wood because the bags weigh more. I clean the pellet firebox and passages every 2 weeks, about the same as I cleaned the woodstove pipe. I cleaned the woodstove firebox every 2 months, about the same as I clean the pellet chimney.

Wood was more work to start a fire all the time and keep an eye on it, and more house cleaning, but since was cheap enough to get me by it was worth it. Now I can afford it I choose pellets.
For me if I was going to spend money on fuel it would not be on pellets. Oil or propane are similarly priced and really no work. None of those work without power. That is just my opinion doesn't mean yours is wrong. I just don't like pellet stoves very much personally.
 
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