What are your energy costs in your area?

tlc1976

Minister of Fire
Oct 7, 2012
595
Northwest Lower Michigan
For me if I was going to spend money on fuel it would not be on pellets. Oil or propane are similarly priced and really no work. None of those work without power. That is just my opinion doesn't mean yours is wrong. I just don't like pellet stoves very much personally.
For me, pellets are way cheaper heat. Even if the cost broke even, my old LP boiler heats the unfinished basement as much as the living space. So I keep it on standby for emergencies only. A new whole house heating system would be a ton of money in any case. The house came with a Generac so outages have not been an issue. All costs for the stove was about $1200. Also the pellet stove is simple to monitor and repair if needed. Works for me.
 
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bholler

Chimney sweep
Staff member
Jan 14, 2014
23,030
central pa
For me, pellets are way cheaper heat. Even if the cost broke even, my old LP boiler heats the unfinished basement as much as the living space. So I keep it on standby for emergencies only. A new whole house heating system would be a ton of money in any case. The house came with a Generac so outages have not been an issue. All costs for the stove was about $1200. Also the pellet stove is simple to monitor and repair if needed. Works for me.
And if it works for you that's all that matters
 
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rickwai

Minister of Fire
Nov 1, 2011
1,010
ohio
I did free wood for 5 years about 3 cords a year. Wood is never free my friend.
Costs of free wood:
  • big expensive chimney (this is is number 1 reason for me not to go back to wood)
  • wood stove
  • large real estate foot print in your house compared to pellet stove. (this is number 2 deal breaker for me)
  • truck to transport wood from wherever you found free wood
  • gas for truck moving the wood. This can be at least $100 in gas.
  • chain saw and new new chains
  • probably need a log splitter. I got real good at splitting wood with just a normal axe. Note its a lot of work splitting wood. I used my brother in-laws log splitter he made from scrap.
  • your time sawing, splitting, and moving wood 4 times if not more.
  • Emergency Room visit. Getting free wood can result in an accident. I never did but I came close a few times.
  • Clean the damn chimney once a year at least. My buddy almost lost his house with a chimney fire. Now they want over $10,000 to fix the chimney.
If you have to cut it anyway to maintain your land you might as well take a couple extra steps and make fuel out of it. Dad has all the equipment on the farm already and has a 1850"s solid brick Federal style home on top of a hill that will take all the heat you can throw at it. Oh and he is not prejudice, he burns fire wood, Pellets, Propane and has a small electric heater in the summer kitchen when it needs a boost. :)
 

Seasoned Oak

Minister of Fire
Oct 17, 2008
7,155
Eastern Central PA
Im heating 2 places 24/7 and various other properties on an as needed basis.
1000 Sq ft apartment to 50 Degrees $600 Yr for Nat. Gas.
3000 Sq Ft old home To 76 Degrees $600 Yr for Coal.
Shop and various other homes being remodeled: Wood, mostly what comes out of the walls and floors. $0 YR

I have no external expenses for processing as i would have to dispose of this wood some other way at $90 a ton at the landfill plus hauling and gas. In this case it truly is free heat and lots of it. Plus i never seem to run out of supply.
 

bogieb

Minister of Fire
Oct 31, 2014
2,826
South Central NH
I pay twice as much for delivery charges as for the electricity itself. By the time all is said and done, dividing the total bill by the 407 kW used, I pay nearly 20 cents per kwh. I don't think there is any fixed charges - all charges are by kwh. Got an email the other day saying prices are going up next month for stranded cost recovery (doubling), distribution charge is going up and energy charge going down (total damage, bills going up by about 5%.

Yet even at the cost of electricity, my bills are fairly paltry since I have a small house, have put in LED lights nearly everywhere, TV is LED, plus I live alone. Note that normally I would be about $90-95 for December, but the pellet stoves haven't been worked as hard this year.

Delivery charges for electricity.JPG
break down for electricity.JPG
break down for electricity2.JPG
 
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rickwai

Minister of Fire
Nov 1, 2011
1,010
ohio
I pay twice as much for delivery charges as for the electricity itself. By the time all is said and done, dividing the total bill by the 407 kW used, I pay nearly 20 cents per kwh. I don't think there is any fixed charges - all charges are by kwh. Got an email the other day saying prices are going up next month for stranded cost recovery (doubling), distribution charge is going up and energy charge going down (total damage, bills going up by about 5%.

Yet even at the cost of electricity, my bills are fairly paltry since I have a small house, have put in LED lights nearly everywhere, TV is LED, plus I live alone. Note that normally I would be about $90-95 for December, but the pellet stoves haven't been worked as hard this year.

View attachment 271521 View attachment 271522 View attachment 271523
Man that is pretty steep!
 

Seasoned Oak

Minister of Fire
Oct 17, 2008
7,155
Eastern Central PA
I pay twice as much for delivery charges as for the electricity itself.
The gas company(UGI) is worse. On my last bill for $71 the Gas itself was $29 To heat
an empty apt to 50 Deg. When i tried to heat it to 60 the bill was $235 for Dec. The 1000SF apt is 1st floor ,insulated with new windows.
 
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tlc1976

Minister of Fire
Oct 7, 2012
595
Northwest Lower Michigan
The gas company(UGI) is worse. On my last bill for $71 the Gas itself was $29 To heat
an empty apt to 50 Deg. When i tried to heat it to 60 the bill was $235 for Dec. The 1000SF apt is 1st floor ,insulated with new windows.
That’s crazy. Of course when it comes to any piped or wired in utilities, they own the infrastructure so they can charge what they want. Best you can do is minimize what you use of it.

One thing with pellets or wood is you can shop around at any time, especially if you pick them up yourself. And store as much as you have room for when you find a cheap source. You can technically shop around with LP or oil, but it’s pretty much a local market price and you can only store 1 tank. And at least with LP it’s not so easy because every company has to change to their own tank. Unless you own your tank but I don’t personally know anyone who does.
 
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bogieb

Minister of Fire
Oct 31, 2014
2,826
South Central NH
The gas company(UGI) is worse. On my last bill for $71 the Gas itself was $29 To heat
an empty apt to 50 Deg. When i tried to heat it to 60 the bill was $235 for Dec. The 1000SF apt is 1st floor ,insulated with new windows.
I don't have electric heat though (besides the fans and ignitors for the pellet stoves). I have a propane boiler - when I moved in I kept it at 64* and was paying 1k and more per month to heat the 950 sq/ft main floor (no heat run to basement). The whole reason I got the pellet stoves. Now I pay 1200-1500 per year for pellets and the basement is now heated too.
 

minux

Member
Nov 30, 2018
146
Baltimore, MD
That’s crazy. Of course when it comes to any piped or wired in utilities, they own the infrastructure so they can charge what they want. Best you can do is minimize what you use of it.

One thing with pellets or wood is you can shop around at any time, especially if you pick them up yourself. And store as much as you have room for when you find a cheap source. You can technically shop around with LP or oil, but it’s pretty much a local market price and you can only store 1 tank. And at least with LP it’s not so easy because every company has to change to their own tank. Unless you own your tank but I don’t personally know anyone who does.
A lot of LP suppliers make it very difficult to procure your own tank, including charging more for LP, outright refusing to fill anything other than "theirs," etc. especially if you are in a one horse town. The tank they supply, guess what, you pay monthly for. Kind of like folks who have paid $20 / month for a router for ten years for a $100 piece of kit.
 
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Seasoned Oak

Minister of Fire
Oct 17, 2008
7,155
Eastern Central PA
. I have a propane boiler - when I moved in I kept it at 64* and was paying 1k and more per month to heat the 950 sq/ft main floor (no heat run to basement).
Wow 1K per month for any kind of heat for 1000SF is just nuts. Propane is not cheap around here either which is why almost no one uses it here. Mostly Not Gas and electric. At one time there was alot of oil heat but people have been switching for decades to mostly gas. Some have heat pumps. Our Natural gas cost about $23 per 1 Million BTUS after UGI gets done with the fees so even heat pump heat is cheaper. And so is oil.at about $15 Per M BTUS. Not sure what propane price is around here.
 
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tlc1976

Minister of Fire
Oct 7, 2012
595
Northwest Lower Michigan
A lot of LP suppliers make it very difficult to procure your own tank, including charging more for LP, outright refusing to fill anything other than "theirs," etc. especially if you are in a one horse town. The tank they supply, guess what, you pay monthly for. Kind of like folks who have paid $20 / month for a router for ten years for a $100 piece of kit.
Mine doesn’t charge for the tank. It must be built into the price of the LP. Or just a freebie which ends up acting as leverage for you to keep coming back to them since their tank is installed in your yard. I pay nothing but their current price no matter how long it’s been between fills. At my old house I went 10 years between fills after my furnace took a dump and I switched to wood. Last time here it was 2 years.
 

ABMax24

Minister of Fire
Our Natural gas cost about $23 per 1 Million BTUS after UGI gets done with the fees so even heat pump heat is cheaper. And so is oil.at about $15 Per M BTUS. Not sure what propane price is around here.
That's insane. Is there a justification for the cost of natural gas, high fuel prices or transmission and distribution fees?

I know a lot of the wet natural gas we produce is shipped out your way via the Alliance Pipeline to Chicago, where it is further processed into methane, ethane, propane and butane and then distributed. It just amazes me the prices you folks pay, we are selling the gas into the pipeline at about $2 USD/million btu, someone along the way is sure making a pile of money.
 

Seasoned Oak

Minister of Fire
Oct 17, 2008
7,155
Eastern Central PA
That's insane. Is there a justification for the cost of natural gas, high fuel prices or transmission and distribution fees?
I know a lot of the wet natural gas we produce is shipped out your way via the Alliance Pipeline to Chicago, where it is further processed into methane, ethane, propane and butane and then distributed. It just amazes me the prices you folks pay, we are selling the gas into the pipeline at about $2 USD/million btu, someone along the way is sure making a pile of money.
I just recalculated my bill and i was way off. UGI is charging $4.50 /M BTU Plus another $4.50 per M. for distribution. Plus a monthly service charge.
I had figured i used 3 million BTUS in Dec but it was closer to 6 . But they still charged $72 for $29 worth of gas with the gas at $4.50p MBTUs. I would go back and correct but not able to edit old post for some reason.
 
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minux

Member
Nov 30, 2018
146
Baltimore, MD
Mine doesn’t charge for the tank. It must be built into the price of the LP. Or just a freebie which ends up acting as leverage for you to keep coming back to them since their tank is installed in your yard. I pay nothing but their current price no matter how long it’s been between fills. At my old house I went 10 years between fills after my furnace took a dump and I switched to wood. Last time here it was 2 years.
You should ask your LP supplier for cost with and without core. Do they allow you to buy your own tank? Companies here do not, charging a "rent" fee for the tank they supply.
 
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rickwai

Minister of Fire
Nov 1, 2011
1,010
ohio
A lot of LP suppliers make it very difficult to procure your own tank, including charging more for LP, outright refusing to fill anything other than "theirs," etc. especially if you are in a one horse town. The tank they supply, guess what, you pay monthly for. Kind of like folks who have paid $20 / month for a router for ten years for a $100 piece of kit.
Here in central OH it is easy to buy your own tank or usually the propane company will just sell you the tank setting in your yard. When you own the tank it saves about a quarter a gallon . Basically they kick up the price a little to cover if you need service on regulators ect.
 

minux

Member
Nov 30, 2018
146
Baltimore, MD
Here in central OH it is easy to buy your own tank or usually the propane company will just sell you the tank setting in your yard. When you own the tank it saves about a quarter a gallon . Basically they kick up the price a little to cover if you need service on regulators ect.
Yeah....

Think you will find drastically cheaper to buy tanks from sources other than your supplier.

Buddy of mine likes to "swing trade" his LP cost. Contact supplier about a 1K GAL tank, so he can stock up, like earlier this year. Was told he could only buy a 200-ish gallon tank. The cost? As much as him buying the 1K gallon tank elsewhere and installing himself.

The installation jobs I have seen on "free" tanks is mind blowing. Some are good, but most have serious issues. They are slap-up jobs 9 out of 10 times. Most people do not care, because the tank was "free" and the company does not care, because you called them and signed a delivery contract.

Careful when for profit companies give you anything for free...

Last couple of weeks - Buddy of mine needs to get satellite TV due to lack of lines to house. Technician comes out, telling him, he will install satellite on the ground and run the feed cable through window frame! The tech was a "real" pro. Tech says, I do not have the tools to do anything else. Buddy tells them to go pound sand. Buddy calls me, I do a roof mount and run feeds through interior walls, down to his basement. Again, the free installation was a set-up for horror. Let me know how trimming grass from a satellite on the ground treats you after five years! Recommend treading lightly with anything free.

An extra whatever ¢ times thirty years, thinking you would be shocked how much you spent on the free tank.
 
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rickwai

Minister of Fire
Nov 1, 2011
1,010
ohio
Yeah....

Think you will find drastically cheaper to buy tanks from sources other than your supplier.

Buddy of mine likes to "swing trade" his LP cost. Contact supplier about a 1K GAL tank, so he can stock up, like earlier this year. Was told he could only buy a 200-ish gallon tank. The cost? As much as him buying the 1K gallon tank elsewhere and installing himself.

The installation jobs I have seen on "free" tanks is mind blowing. Some are good, but most have serious issues. They are slap-up jobs 9 out of 10 times. Most people do not care, because the tank was "free" and the company does not care, because you called them and signed a delivery contract.

Careful when for profit companies give you anything for free...

Last couple of weeks - Buddy of mine needs to get satellite TV due to lack of lines to house. Technician comes out, telling him, he will install satellite on the ground and run the feed cable through window frame! The tech was a "real" pro. Tech says, I do not have the tools to do anything else. Buddy tells them to go pound sand. Buddy calls me, I do a roof mount and run feeds through interior walls, down to his basement. Again, the free installation was a set-up for horror. Let me know how trimming grass from a satellite on the ground treats you after five years! Recommend treading lightly with anything free.

An extra whatever ¢ times thirty years, thinking you would be shocked how much you spent on the free tank.
I totally agree. that nothing is free.
I just switched from cable to SlingTV . I did the research, I was paying $110/ mo for just basic cable, n o dvr or anything. I got Sling for $45.00 then added a few things and am at about $70. But I will drop the sports package once college wrestling season is over ($15/mo) . You can add or drop packages monthly very easy. I then Mounted a nice digital antenna on the house and bought a box of coax and the compression tool and stripper. I reworked my wires and piped my antenna into my Sling so I can watch tv off my antenna anywhere. My daughter in North Carolina watches local news from my antenna at her house!
I have Spectrum internet service and have approx. 115 mbps when I do a speeedtest and no data limit
 

minux

Member
Nov 30, 2018
146
Baltimore, MD
I totally agree. that nothing is free.
I just switched from cable to SlingTV . I did the research, I was paying $110/ mo for just basic cable, n o dvr or anything. I got Sling for $45.00 then added a few things and am at about $70. But I will drop the sports package once college wrestling season is over ($15/mo) . You can add or drop packages monthly very easy. I then Mounted a nice digital antenna on the house and bought a box of coax and the compression tool and stripper. I reworked my wires and piped my antenna into my Sling so I can watch tv off my antenna anywhere. My daughter in North Carolina watches local news from my antenna at her house!
I have Spectrum internet service and have approx. 115 mbps when I do a speeedtest and no data limit
Have you checked out locast.org? Free, no need to re-scan for local channels, full HD, no need to worry about azimuths :)

I donate $5 per month for it, but locast.org has a free option. Can not comment on the free option, because I use my crypto earnings to cover the $5 and fully support reasonably priced offerings.

I am tempted to jump on the AT&T Now bandwagon, especially if HBO continues producing watchable TV.

I had Sling last year - they decided to raise my prices to $100 / month, when I was paying $40. Said no thanks...
 

Seasoned Oak

Minister of Fire
Oct 17, 2008
7,155
Eastern Central PA
Theres a slew of services in the $20 a month range. I have one for years. Getting to the point where soon my netflix subscription at $19 a month will cost more than all my other programming .
 

rickwai

Minister of Fire
Nov 1, 2011
1,010
ohio
The nice thing is if I find something I like better I just switch. No contracts or equipment to return ect. I am always open to what other options are out there.
 

rickwai

Minister of Fire
Nov 1, 2011
1,010
ohio
Have you checked out locast.org? Free, no need to re-scan for local channels, full HD, no need to worry about azimuths :)

I donate $5 per month for it, but locast.org has a free option. Can not comment on the free option, because I use my crypto earnings to cover the $5 and fully support reasonably priced offerings.

I am tempted to jump on the AT&T Now bandwagon, especially if HBO continues producing watchable TV.

I had Sling last year - they decided to raise my prices to $100 / month, when I was paying $40. Said no thanks...
I just checked. Locast not available in my area yet
 

minux

Member
Nov 30, 2018
146
Baltimore, MD
Theres a slew of services in the $20 a month range. I have one for years. Getting to the point where soon my netflix subscription at $19 a month will cost more than all my other programming .
Yeah, the $20 packages never covered the channels we watched, so we always had to pay more, then competition in the space forces multiple streaming suppliers for coverage.

Contemporary problems...
 

Seasoned Oak

Minister of Fire
Oct 17, 2008
7,155
Eastern Central PA
Yeah, the $20 packages never covered the channels we watched, so we always had to pay more, then competition in the space forces multiple streaming suppliers for coverage.
You must be looking in the wrong place ,i get more channels than i ever did with Cable. But you do need High speed internet for 4K.
 

rickwai

Minister of Fire
Nov 1, 2011
1,010
ohio
You must be looking in the wrong place ,i get more channels than i ever did with Cable. But you do need High speed internet for 4K.
When I do a speed test from my phone I get about 115 mpbs. Is that considered high speed? I know the last Firestick I bought has 4k, but I dont know if my tv does or not. I am just happy that I finally made the leap and cut the cable. On eof the reasons picked Sling was the guide looked alot like the cable guide. I am a creature of habit, with cable for 30 yrs it was a tough move :) . I will look into the other services to see if there is anything that fits better.