What do I need?

[karl]

Ok last spring I planned on heating with wood this year and didn't. This year no excuses. I have a $300.00 a month gas bill due to an old furnace and an out rageous gas company. Even still, I freeze to death during the winter, heating the house to only 60 degrees except for two rooms that I heat with a ventless gas space heater.

I had a tree cutter drop off alot of wood last year. He said it was a couple of cords atleast and I havent done anything with it. Also, my father-in-law has a few hundred acres that he lets a guy do timber work on. This guy fells the trees and delimbs them and hauls the trunks out. So, there are tons of good sized branches all around that I can have.

I have a single story ranch style house that is fairly well insulated. I plan to blow in more insulation either this year or next, depending on what it costs me to get a good insert and splitter.

Here are the specs. I have a fireplace that is located in the center of the house. I want to install an insert in it. The room is 422 square feet. It has two double door size openings. One leads to the hall and the other leads to the dining room. The main living area is 1400 square feet. This includes the living room, hall way, family room (where I spend most of my time), the dining room and the kitchen. The bedrooms and bathrooms add another 800 square feet to the house. I don't care if these rooms stay as warm as the rest of the house. I live alone and only use one bedroom and I like it colder in there anyway.


So, I want to keep 1400 square feet toasty warm and another 800 square feet some what colder. To give you an idea of the the houses insulation properties, I heat two rooms the family room and kitchen with a 20,000 btu ventless gas heater. These two rooms are a little over 500 square feet total. With the furnaces thermosat set on 60 degrees, these two rooms stay toasty warm with the addition of the space heater. Infact, if I run it for 30 minutes, these two rooms stay warm for a couple of hours easily.

What size insert do I need? And how much should I pay for one? I can get a Century Insert by Vermont castings for about a thousand dollars. This includes shipping to me and the chimney liner. Here are the specs on the stove. (broken link removed)

BTU output. 9,600-58,000 Btu/hr using the EPA Test Method.
1.3 cubic foot fire box volume

Is this insert big enough for what I need? Is is a good insert? What other brands do you suggest? Also is 1.3 cubic feet big enough for a long fire? I would like something that would burn all night.


Finally, how much wood do I need for a season? The average winter low here is 24.5 degrees and the average winter high is 39.5. It usually doesn't get really could here until mid december and warms up by april. I live in Southern West Virginia. So Three months of cold weather and another month of kinda cold weather.
Thank you in advance for your replies.

Karl

 

[webbie]

I would suggest using 2 cubic feet as a minimum size and perhaps 2.8 as a maximum, while trying to stay in the lower (say 2.2 CF) of that range. This will give you numerous advantages such as better burn time, longer log length.

There are a LOT of units in this mid-sized range - including a number listed at our Products Page below - and the VC/Dutchwest, etc. - other folks here may suggest Englander, which is made right there is VA.

Truth is that most of them are pretty good units. You have to decide on your budget, style, etc. - a "bare bones' stove will cost less than one with a solid brass or gold plated door, etc.

 

[MrGriz]

Welcome to hearth.com Karl. You will love the warmth of wood heat and the drop in your heating bill! There's quite a bit of work involved with burning for heat, but I love that aspect also.

There are a number of great inserts out there that should do the job of heating your home quite well. The dimensions of your current fireplace may narrow your options. What are the dimensions of the firebox in your current fireplace? Your budget may also limit the choices that you have available. Don't forget that in addition to the insert, you will need to line the chimney and install a blockoff plate where the liner passes through the flue opening (debate coming in 3...2...1...), so you'll have to figure that into the budget. What is the approximate height and construction of your existing chimney?

I would look through the reviews on this site and check out the products page for some ideas. Also check out the Wiki section for some good advice on buying a stove / insert. Above all, ask questions; you'll find a lot of great advice and knowledge here!

 

[elkimmeg]

double post see below

 

[elkimmeg]

Personally I believe the 1.3 cu ft fire box to be too small to burn productive beyond 4 hours berore re load .Budget in mind ,Englander has the NC -13 insert
with a 1.8 fire box size, now you can approach 6 good hours of heat. I agree with Craig to get any near 8 hrs of productive heat one must have a fire box size of 2.5 Cu or one very effecient Cat combustor still over 2.0 cu ft size.The Century you are mentioning, will need to be feed every 4 hours. Also budget minded look into the Lopi inserts..

Again as mentioned to advise, we need dementions of your current o fireplace opening and flue size plus Verticle height


Welcome to the hearth

 

[Gooserider]

Agreed with the others on the stove size, and the shopping list there. Dependng on what you have presently, you will probably need a liner (what is the flue size on the current fireplace? Masonry chimney or pre-fab? Is it a "real" masonry fireplace, a "heatform" box, or a pre-fab? All questions that need answering, and will impact what you will need / can do...)

The other half of the equation is the wood to feed the fire - sounds like you have a good supply of raw material, but need to turn it into ready to burn wood.

Definitions: Logs - chunks of tree bigger than will fit in the stove; Rounds - sections of log cut to "stove length", may be burnable as-is; Splits - rounds that have been split as needed to get an appropriate size to feed the stove, anything that's "ready to burn".

You will see mixed opinions on sizes of splits, etc. I am a cheapskate, and tend to cut up and put anything over about 1-2" in diameter on the wood pile (it drives me nuts to see what the tree guys run through the chipper :coolcheese: ) from there up to about 4-5" in diameter I don't split. Above that I'll split down to about that size. As a general rule, small splits will give you a hot fire that burns quickly, large splits will give you long lower temperature burns... You will want a mix of sizes, small stuff to build up a coal bed with, and to get the house up to temp quickly, and big stuff for those all night burns.

From your description of having lots of tops and branches, it sounds like most of what you have for your supply is going to be fairly small diameter stuff that won't need much, if any, splitting, and shouldn't be hard to cut.

I have an old pre-epa smoke dragon / wood hog, and went through about 6.5 cords last winter, had 7.5 processed, and if it hadn't been a mostly far milder winter than normal that wouldn't have been enough here in New England. An EPA stove is more efficient, and your climate is much easier, but I'd still suggest 4-5 cords as a starting point for the first season and see how you do... If you have to much it will keep, and it's better to have leftovers than it is to run out.

Shopping list for wood processing...

1. PERSONAL PROTECTIVE EQUIPMENT!(PPE) Buy your PPE FIRST! - a chainsaw is arguably the most dangerous peice of power equipment ever invented, get the gear to minimize your risk of injury if you blow it and do a stupid... Head / face / hearing protection - I like the all in one hard-hat / earmuff / face shield combos, at least get a faceshield and earmuff unit ~P. Chainsaw Chaps or chainsaw pants ~$50-70. Chainsaw boots $170-250. is the minimum I'd suggest - Possibly it would be worth adding a vest ~$50-75 and chainsaw gloves ~$25 - note that this is the level of gear that OSHA REQUIRES a professional, who has had lots more practice with a saw, to wear... See the gear section for recomendations about brands / sources.

2. A saw - Again see the gear section. Given your wood description, I'd probably go for a smaller saw with a 16-18" bar, as those are lighter and easier to work on small stuff. If you have or get a lot of larger stuff you might want to think about a bigger saw with a longer bar instead of / in addition to the little saw.

3. Splitter - lots of choices, depends on how much work you want to do / money you want to spend... I use a "monster maul" backed up with sledge & wedge to hand split my supply, depends on how much exercise you want to get - I figure hand splitting saves me from the "health club dues blues" if nothing else. Given your wood supply, I'd think most of what you get won't need much (if any) splitting, I'd be tempted to skip the splitter the first year and see what you end up needing.

4. A "timber-jack" this is essentially a peavey with a stand on one side, useful to pick up logs so that you can cut them w/o grounding the chain.

5. Something to fish the wood out of the woods - will depend on how you are doing it, how much money you want to spend, etc... Could be a 4WD pickup, a trailer on your tractor or quad, a skidder, or just a wheelbarrow - all depends...

6. Wood storage - could be a simple as piling splits on pallets or boars (It is important to keep your processed wood off the ground!) to a wood shed of some sort, depends on your needs / budget.

Hope this helps,

Gooserider

 

[karl]

Thanks for all the advice.

My fireplace is 42" wide in the front tapering to 32" in the back 25 1/4" deep and 31" high.

It is a real chimney made out of granite block like the rest of the house. It is lined with terracotta. I didn't measure it tonight, but I think it's about 8" square. Certainly not less than 6" and maybe even 10" I figured I would need to line it. As for the height, I don't know. It's a one story house and it extends about 5' about the top of the roof. So does 20' sound about right?

I have an 18" saw that I use around the yard now. I have a little over an acre to take care of. Most everything from my father-in-laws property won't need split and most everthing the tree guy left will need split. I might wait until next year to buy a splitter.

As for how much wood,if you burned 6.5 cords in an old stove in New England, I should burn way less in a new stove in Southern West Virginia. Also, I am a pilot and gone half the month. So, the stove will only be used half the time and the furnace will keep the house at 55 degrees the other half. I was figuring on having 3 cords for this year but I'll cut what ever I can and used it next year.

I have a block pile left over from the house and I have laid out a 15'x25' layer of block on the ground to keep the wood off of the dirt.


I hope this answers your questions. And thanks again for the help.

 

[Gooserider]

Thanks for all the advice.

You're quite welcome...

My fireplace is 42" wide in the front tapering to 32" in the back 25 1/4" deep and 31" high.

That sounds like a good size unit, you shouldn't have any problems finding an insert to go into it, or a stove to fit in front of it - you will see lots of different brands / models suggested, any of the top brands would probably do you quite well, it's largely a matter of what you like in terms of style, etc... That you have an existing fireplace that big also suggests looking for an insert with a large firebox just to keep it looking appropriate when you put it in the fireplace opening....

IIt is a real chimney made out of granite block like the rest of the house. It is lined with terracotta. I didn't measure it tonight, but I think it's about 8" square. Certainly not less than 6" and maybe even 10" I figured I would need to line it. As for the height, I don't know. It's a one story house and it extends about 5' about the top of the roof. So does 20' sound about right?

Sounds like a good chimney, though the exact height depends on your roof pitch, etc. but I would say between 15-20' is probably a good initial guess. That should be enough to give you good draft on any insert you choose. Is it an inside chimney, or an exterior chimney? If it's inside, and an 8"^2 flue you might not need to reline it, exterior or 10"^2 you almost certainly will. In any case there are advantages in ease of future cleaning to a full lining over a "direct connect" installation. There is some debate about whether or not code requires insulation on the liner, and you are far enough south it probably isn't vital, but IMHO it isn't that much added expense, it's easier to put it in initially, and it certainly won't hurt. You will ABSOLUTELY need a blockoff plate to close up the bottom side of the flue - don't let any installer talk you out of it - some will....

Do you know if the flue is straight up, or does it have any bends in it? How tight is the throat of the firebox connecting to the flue? These aren't "stopper" type issues, but they will influence how much hassle a reline and install will be.

II have an 18" saw that I use around the yard now. I have a little over an acre to take care of. Most everything from my father-in-laws property won't need split and most everthing the tree guy left will need split. I might wait until next year to buy a splitter.

Sounds like a reasonable saw, don't forget the PPE if you don't already have it. I would probably get a sledge and a few wedges, and possibly a "monster maul" just for light splitting in any case, but then I tend to be a physical sort...

IAs for how much wood,if you burned 6.5 cords in an old stove in New England, I should burn way less in a new stove in Southern West Virginia. Also, I am a pilot and gone half the month. So, the stove will only be used half the time and the furnace will keep the house at 55 degrees the other half. I was figuring on having 3 cords for this year but I'll cut what ever I can and used it next year.

Given what you describe, 3 cords may be enough, but I'd go for more if I could - it seems the optimal wood is seasoned for 18-24 months, though 9-12 will do. I would cut as much as I can get this year, then reduce when I saw how much I really used... You will note that some of the "hard core" folks here will brag on how many years ahead they are in their piles.

II have a block pile left over from the house and I have laid out a 15'x25' layer of block on the ground to keep the wood off of the dirt.

Hmmm.... That is sort of good, but not optimal... Moisture will still travel through the blocks, but air won't, and the idea is to both get the wood off the dirt AND to allow air to circulate through the pile... Most folks seem to use either PT 2 x X's on edge or old pallets so that the wood is off the ground, and the air can get under the pile and come up through it...

I hope this answers your questions. And thanks again for the help.

No problem, glad to help out.

Gooserider

 

[karl]

Thanks again for the help.

So are you saying I should be more concerned about the firebox size than the BTU output?

Also, I read where people say they burn 24/7. Are they home all the time or do they let it burn while there are gone. I wouldn't think leaving a fire unattended would be safe.

 

[Andre B.]

Also, I read where people say they burn 24/7. Are they home all the time or do they let it burn while there are gone. I wouldn't think leaving a fire unattended would be safe.

Would you turn off a natural gas, propane or oil furnace when you leave?
They have a fire burning also and are made with a lot thinner steel and very little if any firebrick.

 

[Rhone]

Thanks again for the help.

So are you saying I should be more concerned about the firebox size than the BTU output?

Also, I read where people say they burn 24/7. Are they home all the time or do they let it burn while there are gone. I wouldn't think leaving a fire unattended would be safe.

Correct, all stoves have just about the same efficiency the best way is to judge by their firebox size. On this forum we don't like how manufactures state max btu's (which is like stating the max rpm's of a car. If you burn it at the max btu's it'll be practically glowing red and dead in short order) or sq. foot it can heat (a stove that says it can heat 2000 sq ft will be woefully underpowered in Alaska with an old 2000 sq ft house in a windy area and overpowered in a 2000 sq ft high efficiency house taking advantage of passive solar built this year in Tenn). Firebox size is the best judgement since they're all pretty much the same efficiency. Also, it gives steel an unfair advantage as it will always have the highest max btu's & size it can heat, followed by cast iron then soapstone even though they all should heat the same in the end with the same sized firebox the difference is how quick. Depending on your situation should help make you decide which you prefer. If you come home to a cold house and want to quickly heat it I'd stick to steel & cast iron. If you're a person who can't stand a lot of heat (that's me) a soapstone stove that puts out less heat per hour but spreads it out over more hours was a wiser choice.

The people that burn 24/7 aren't usually home to watch it. I don't anyway, would if I were retired.

 

[Gooserider]

Thanks again for the help.

So are you saying I should be more concerned about the firebox size than the BTU output?

In short, yes... The reason is because of the nature of wood and the way the stove makers "cook" the numbers you get from it... Given a particular variety, wood has a certain amount of potential heating energy per pound / unit of volume - If you burn X amount, you will get Y amount of total energy released, no matter how long it takes to do the burning. The question is how long did you spend releasing that energy?

A stove maker can, within limits, play games with BTU numbers and burn times to get the numbers that he feels will look best on the marketing materials - If he wants a high BTU rating, he runs the stove hot, and gets very high heat output, but doesn't tell you that you need to reload every few hours to get that much heat... If he'd rather push the burn time, then he can run the stove at a lower temperature, and see how long he can stretch the time... A few makers try to "have their cake and eat it too", by running the stove both ways, and quoting the best number from each, while not saying they were from different operating styles (I'm thinking of one model in particular that claims high btu output and 40 hour burn times....)

IOW, for a given size of firebox, you can get either a relatively short HOT burn, or a much longer cool burn. A while back Elk and I went up to the VC plant for a VIP tour - their chief engineer showed us a set of graphs they had generated testing a particular stove model - They showed a DIRECT correlation between temperature and burn time, In one case they had run the stove as hard as they could without over-firing, and got close to three times the peak BTU output as the stove was "officially" rated at in the brochure, but had to reload in four hours. In another case, they turned it down as low as they could go, and got 12+ hour burns, but far less than the "rated" BTU's - the optimum was about what they put in their literature, where they got about an 8 hour burn with close to the rated BTU output for almost the entire time. (VC says they prefer to be conservative with their numbers as a matter of policy)

Thus the bottom line is to figure out how many BTU's/hour you want, multiply that by the desired number of hours burn time, and figure that number of total BTU's into the potential BTU's/cu. ft. for the kind of firewood you are most likely to be burning (varies by region - oak burns hotter than pine, but not everyone can get oak...) That will tell you how much wood you will need to burn per load. If you can't get that much wood into the firebox, then something has to give, no matter what sort of games the stove maker played with his numbers.

Also, I read where people say they burn 24/7. Are they home all the time or do they let it burn while there are gone. I wouldn't think leaving a fire unattended would be safe.

As pointed out earlier, a woodstove is a fire in a HEAVY duty, very solid box... As long as you accept the responsibility to operate the stove properly, by doing things like closing and latching the doors, the fire in the woodstove is as safe or safer than any of the other fires you don't think twice about elsewhere in your home, such as the furnace, hot water heater, etc... The woodstove box is stronger than the box those other fires are in, and the fuel is not explosive like LP or natural gas, or a free flowing liquid like oil... Bottom line is that a woodstove is safe to leave unattended, as long as you take care of it properly. Your other fuel appliances need care and maintainence as well, just don't need as much personal involvement so you tend to forget about them.

The 24/7 burners aren't always at home, though obviously they do have to be home a bit more often than average so that they can refill the stove as needed...

Gooserider

 

[MrGriz]

I was a bit uneasy about burning when no one was home at first; now I don't give it a second thought. Once I became comfortable with running the stove and knowing how and when to set things so that I wouldn't overfire, I began burning 24/7 when the weather dictates.

As pointed out, there are plenty of other appliances that people don't think twice about letting run while they aren't home. The funny thing is that I don't like my wife running the cloths dryer when no one is at home but I'll stuff the stove full of wood and go to work or bed without a second thought (any more).

The point abut firebox size vs BTU rating or claimed square footage heating capacity has been covered excellently. Based on the BTU and square footage rating, I thought I would cook myself out of the basement with my Osburn 2200i to keep the rest of the house cool. I found that this is definitely not the case. I am able to move the air well enough to even out the heat in the first two levels of the house. I'm also sure that I would not get the extended burn times I do now with a smaller firebox.

Along those lines, I would suggest going with one of the largest fireboxes you can (without sacrificing other features that are important to you). You can always build a smaller fire in a bigger box. On the other hand, once it's full, it's full.