What to do for auxiliary heat

[ControlFreak]

Hi Guys,

I've been heating for about 11 years with wood, using oil as backup. This coming winter, I want to entirely eliminate any use of oil. I don't even want to hear the word. So, I will need a secondary heat source for the times when the stove needs a little help. Here are the options I see:
1. Oil -- Hey, hey I don't want to use that word any more.
2. Electric -- easiest but expensive.
3. Propane insert -- really easy to run, expensive to run, already have one of these.
4. Pellet stove -- easy to run and install, reasonable cost for heat, expensive to buy one of these.
5. Second wood stove -- more work to run and install, cheap heat, not too expensive to buy.

What do you guys do for a secondary heat source? I know a lot of you have two wood stoves. Anybody use pellets for a secondary heat source?

Thanks,

Dan

 

[Highbeam]

We use the electric wall heaters. The ones with an element inside and a fan to blow air out. They are 220 volt, though 110 volt units are available, and consume 1000-2000 watts when running. Individual programmable thermostats for each room allows great zone heating. No tripping hazard, no special fuel to buy, almost no maintenance, DIY install if you aren't afraid of electricity, dependable simple devices with no duct loss, and they are cheap to buy at local hardware stores. These things only cost money when you use them.

The negatives are cost of power which is actually pretty good compared to other prices, really good in the NW. The other negative is noise. They sound about like a microwave when running. The old style baseboard electric is pretty silent.

 

[BrotherBart]

We have a DeLonghi oil filled electric radiator heater in each room of the house for backup. In an actual pinch only two or three would be running. Since we don't have oil or gas, all electric house, that is our only choice and the one time they were used for a week were not that expensive to run. As to auxiliary, with the 30-NC on the main floor and F3CB down in my basement office no aux heat needed. I can sweat us outta here at will on the coldest day short of Antarctica.

The heat pump died years ago and I just haven't ever had it replaced. Delivered, tax, title and your old tires our electric is 14 cents a kwh here. A least until someday when they have to fire those NG peaking plants to help out the nuke and the coal plants.

 

[fossil]

We have an electric forced air (central/distributed) heating system in the house. We're doing a major remodel, and putting a newer version of the same system in a different location, one with a variable speed fan. We rarely use it. Mostly I see it as insurance against a freeze if we're away from home for a while. We have no NG service available, so our water heater is electric, as well. I'd have to look up our electric rates, but they're pretty reasonable. Oregon has lots of hydropower capacity, and is relatively sparsely populated. Our utilities make more money selling their excess power to California than they do off us, I think. Rick

 

[ControlFreak]

We use the electric wall heaters. The ones with an element inside and a fan to blow air out. They are 220 volt, though 110 volt units are available, and consume 1000-2000 watts when running. Individual programmable thermostats for each room allows great zone heating. No tripping hazard, no special fuel to buy, almost no maintenance, DIY install if you aren't afraid of electricity, dependable simple devices with no duct loss, and they are cheap to buy at local hardware stores. These things only cost money when you use them.

The negatives are cost of power which is actually pretty good compared to other prices, really good in the NW. The other negative is noise. They sound about like a microwave when running. The old style baseboard electric is pretty silent.

It's funny that my house here in MA was pure electric heat when I bought about 12 years ago. I installed an oil heating system, then shortly thereafter bought the insert and began heating with wood. Now I'm thinking that I may regret that I ripped out all those electric baseboard heaters and mudded over the thermostat boxes after the oil system was in.

 

[njtomatoguy]

I am looking for a coal stove to use as primary, move the CFM24007 into the planned addition, more for ambiance than anything. I used the furnace 2 weeks last year, more out of bad scheduling at the job and some laziness than nescessity. I also have the delonghi oil filled radiator, which i have used on medium when i did not think the stove would hold the house temp high enough.
I heat a small ranch.

 

[savageactor7]

CF we have LP as a back up but it's not as warm as oil...I don't care what the expert stove installer guys say.

Yesterday we had a fire going in the morning...it the past at this time of year I was content to let the oil stove warm the house up. But with our replacement LP stove it runs and runs and we never seem to get warm...so the hell with it if the LP is running I just start a fire.

Now if your a traveler type going on vacation in the winter sure LP will keep your pipes from freezing ...so yeah it's a good back up in that way.

If I were in you shoes I'd keep the oil just try and not use it as much. Look this high fuel thing situation just can't continue...it's a national security issue. So for now just hunker down and make the best of it it just can't continue as it is.

People will soon realize their just working for fuel and that's bogus.

 

[Hogwildz]

I have decided to go with baseboard electric heat for backups. Oil is just continuing to skyrocket, and yes electric is going up also, but not at the rate of oil around here.
I am still shooting for the Hydrosil baseboard heaters. Only getting 2- 8' sticks, one for the new office & 1 for the new bedroom. Already have FA oil in the main house, 1/4 tank left from 2006 fillup.
I am still balking at getting it filled up. Just can bring myself to do it.

 

[fespo]

I have one wood burner that runs 24 /7 when needed. One pellet stove the runs when it's real cold or to take the chill out in the morning. I like the pellet for those lazy mornings when you don't need to heat the whole house. Also we have the brand new 80% gas that I try to run three times a years, just to make sure it runs. I would like to replace the pellet stove with a soap stove but the wife says no. She likes the eazy of use. I just don't like paying for the pellets. I don't know if this helps you out but everyone is differnt

 

[grizzly2]

I have a toyostove vented space heater that burns keros. Also have electric baseboard installed throughout the house. In the past I have heated 80% wood, 17% keros. and 3% electric.

Now so I don't have to use backup hardly at all, I have a coal stove that will go unatended for 20+ hours and has greater BTU output than the woodstove (which is now in the garage). I am using keros. in the cool evening now that I have let the coal fire go out. When the Keros is gone, that is the end of that. I will not buy more. Electric is actually cheaper to operate than keros at this time. I plan to use some wood in the coal stove just to take off the evening chill during the spring and fall.

I have always maintained at least three sources of heat, and at least one of those that will operate without electricity Where winter temps usually drop to -20* last 5 months and power outages have lasted up to 18 days, reliable heat is a must.

 

[RedRanger]

Yes,keep the oil, just cause ya have it doesn`t mean you have to use lots of it. We only burned about 350 litres last year, which I think is about 60 gallons. That oil is for our old oil-fired boiler which is our central heat. Only kicks on when the temp goes below 15 celcious, which I think is about 58F. We found it is actually cheaper to use that rather than the propane insert.

Really depends on your house layout? We need a "kick" when the wood insert is not burning. but with that kick the insert will more or less maintain the temps we want. Still kinda cool upstairs though. Truthfully, I have been at this problematic thing since I retired 4 years ago, and still don`t know if I have the right handle on it? And for us, things are changed again this year because of our new wood insert-ie, what will it do and what wont it do? Trial and error my friend

 

[Jerry_NJ]

I use electricity, and last winter used only that as I was having problems with a chimney odor problem. This is via a heat pump and the maximum monthly bill was about $225, high but not a killer, this is heat, light, hot water, cooking, everything except the internet, t.v. and telephone. I have used both coal and hardwood/softwood, and still have the coal/wood stove in the basement. I'd kind of like to go back to anthracite coal as a secondary, but I'm not sure it is available here any longer. The lumber yard that carried it years ago has changed it business model due to pressure from Home Depot/Lowes (I assume, don't really know, just know they've moved away from residential consumer trade). I agree, coal is easy to store, and other than some dust, is ok stored inside...in fact a coal bucket looks fine in a living space, sitting near a coal stove. I'm looking forward to using the new ordered, but not installed yet, Quadrafire 4100-I insert. I'm sure as long as I can find enough wood to run it, it will heat the house with very little help from the heat pump, which will remain my back-up.

 

[ControlFreak]

Yes,keep the oil, just cause ya have it doesn`t mean you have to use lots of it. We only burned about 350 litres last year, which I think is about 60 gallons. That oil is for our old oil-fired boiler which is our central heat. Only kicks on when the temp goes below 15 celcious, which I think is about 58F. We found it is actually cheaper to use that rather than the propane insert.

Really depends on your house layout? We need a "kick" when the wood insert is not burning. but with that kick the insert will more or less maintain the temps we want. Still kinda cool upstairs though. Truthfully, I have been at this problematic thing since I retired 4 years ago, and still don`t know if I have the right handle on it? And for us, things are changed again this year because of our new wood insert-ie, what will it do and what wont it do? Trial and error my friend

Oh, I won't remove the oil system, I agree prices will come down, the question is just how much and when. Until then, I refuse to participate in this madness. Maybe I'll keep an eye out for a good used freestanding pellet stove.

 

[swestall]

Well you have the most timely question for the day! We have been using OIL since building the house in 87. We've been able to keep the annual use down to about 500 gal. Yesterday I had the tanks topped off; $1765.55! Holy Sheeeetttt. I am never going to stop using wood. My wife was complaining about the "mess" at the beginning of last year, but as the year progressed and the price of oil climbed she became a true believer. When I told her it was time to get oil (we need it for hot water and minor supplement ( Jan-March) she was FREAKED. I said, aren't you glad we heat with wood, she just was quiet and nodded her head, YES!

I am not sure about the cost of OIL versus Electricity or Propane. BUT, I am going to be doing some research (anyone here already done it, so I can be lazy?) I think it may be time for me to install a different HOT WATER heater; elect, propane, or perhaps even one of the new on demand units. With that, I am sure I can reduce my OIL consumption to very little, and with that I will leave the OIL as my backup source. I might add that we have an oil fired boiler (HBSmith) and hot water baseboard.

If it gets really bad, I may consider installing some Solar panels on the roof to drive the baseboards and supplement the Hot Water. But, you have to consider the up front cost vs. benefits of that.

Since the OIL barons have no real shortage of OIL (yet) or greed, its my thinking that we are totally screwed here and the first one to figure out some good, and cost effective alternatives is going to do very well. We are just in the middle of a contrived bidding war that benefits, guess who, the folks with the oil, the traders, the middlemen, etc.

In the meantime, I predict that there will be a shortage of wood for sale in the coming year and forward, so get it right now while you can. The People are going to wake up around August and stoves and wood will hit the demand curve.

Best Regards to All and Happy Summer to everyone! Steve.

 

[Highbeam]

The costs of the different energy forms varies significantly across the country. Almost certainly though, using your boiler to indirectly heat domestic water with oil is one of the most expensive methods. In my area, electricity is as cheap or cheaper than anything except natural gas for heating water. I see little to no incentive to remove my electric tank heater.

 

[Jerry_NJ]

I understand the "on demand" water heaters (even with oil fired, needs something hot, oil, NG, or Propane) are more cost effective than a tank..this assumes you tank sits most of the time losing heat while waiting for a call for hot water. If you electricity is 10 Cents per KWH, it will be you best buy for a tank heater, I believe without crunching the numbers. We pay 15 Cents, average, here in NJ, and I have no issue with the cost of hot water albeit oil was much less cost when oil was under $2 per gallon. Then too, I don't have an oil tank, as I heat with a heat pump, i.e., electric.

 

[Redox]

It sounds like Steve's wife is coming around to the idea. Mine puts up with the mess because she gets really warm when the stove is lit.

I'm not sure I would remove any working heating equipment from my house just yet just to be rid of oil or whatever. The oil "bubble" might burst next week and oil could drop to less than $2/gal (NOT!). Just having it around for emergencies is worth the space it takes up, IMHO.

Agreed on the existing oil DHW, however. I've heard that the realistic efficiencies of a tankless coil in an oil boiler is typically 25% or so in the summer. I think an electric storage heater would make a lot of sense in the summer in this instance.

Pellets and LP are kind of a crapshoot right now, but if you found something used for a good price, it might sway you in that direction. Electric sounds expensive, but if you didn't need it that much, it would be worth it, mainly because the equipment is so cheap to buy.

I'm not a huge fan of portable electric heaters in continuous use as their size (1500W) is just under what the code would require for a hard wired appliance. If you're serious, a few cheap electric baseboards permanently installed and wired is a good option when the temperature drops below what your stove can handle.

As for as our house, when the stove can't keep up, there is a 90% NG furnace, two heat pumps and a little electric resistance waiting in the wings. I'll wait till someone complains before turning any of them on, but they're there, if needed.

Chris

 

[jebatty]

We live in rural area and have two backup systems for our one level, 1500 sq ft house. The wood stove in the LR heats the whole house just fine, no matter how cold outside (-30F is not uncommon). But if we take off for more than a day, the electric baseboard takes over to keep the house at 55. This is interruptible and we get elec at a real low rate. But if a power outage, then a wall mounted convection LP heater, milivolt thermostat,100 gal outside tank, kicks in just to make sure no freeze up. Have never had to use the LP, but the approx $500 total cost is a good insurance policy.

 

[jpl1nh]

We've got a couple of portable electric heaters that we can use to help warm the cold spots in the coldest weather. Have a full tank of oil and forced hot air too which we use to take the chill off at very beginning and very end of season. Sometimes will run the furnace for a half hour or so in the coldest weather since it delivers heat to the perimeters so well. I'd keep the furnace. Get a couple of electric heaters and use them to touch up or back up only when needed. I think electric will be our cheapest energy form in the long run (aside from wood :coolsmile since it can come from so many sources and the efficiency of production tends to be so good in such large scales. Can't put tiny nuke plants in your house either.

 

[Jerry_NJ]

jebatty,
Very comprehensive multi-tier heating plan - I hope you turn up the LP system at least one a year to be sure it operates and the "cob webs" are blown/burned out.

 

[Ken45]

Don,

You didn't mention WHY you want backup heat. In case of a power outage? In case of extreme cold? Or for when you are away for the weekend or are too sick to tend the fire?

Offering an answer depends on how you answer those questions. Obviously oil or electric won't work for a power outage. Neither will a pellet stove.

For extreme cold or when you can't tend the fire, probably what you have (your oil furnace) is the best bet since it's already there and working without additional expense. Cheap 1500 watt electric heaters are probably the next lowest initial cost.

We use the existing heat pump for mild weather, and the pellet stove for intermediate backup (we are not impressed with ours for main heat). We also have unvented gas logs which do a decent job and do not require electricity but depend on the 100 gallon tank. Our driveway is usually impassible 1-4 weeks each winter so we can't depend on that for a long term outage.

Ken

 

[begreen]

We ran the house for five years with propane central forced air, a wood and a pellet stove. The wood and pellet stoves worked interchangeably for primary heat. The pellet stove was on a digital thermostat with a night setback of about 6 degrees. It was set to fire up the pellet stove about 30 minutes before we got up in the morning. If temps were above 45, the pellet stove easily carried the whole house heating load. When below 45 we would use both the pellet stove and wood stove, usually firing up the wood stove in the afternoon and evenings. Occasionally, when it was cold outside, the propane furnace would come on first thing in the morning to assist the pellet stove getting the house up to temp (68).

Now we have a high-efficiency heat pump that carries the main load very well and quite inexpensively. But when it gets below 45 outside we switch to wood. If it is 40 or below we are burning 24/7 with wood. The heat pump will handle the house without going to the backup electric coils down to about 30 degrees outside, but we like the warmth of the wood stove better. It's real hard to snuggle up to a floor register blowing 110 degree air. With the T6 we can heat the whole house regardless of outside temps.

 

[Jerry_NJ]

Hum, on heat pumps, I have geothermal, so the outside air temp isn't a factor on its efficiency, of course it runs a lot more when really cold out, maybe constantly. But, I never wee 110 degrees coming out of the register unless the resistive supplemental/backup coils are on, and the heat pump in high speed (we have a two speed compressor and an three speed fan). So, I assume you you, begreen, are talking about the time the heat pump is in resistive heat mode.

In low speed, my HP raises the temperature about 20 degrees over house temp, e.g., house at 66, HP at 86, in high speed more air is moving and the temperature rise is closer to 25 degrees, and if the two stage resistive cuts in the temperature rise goes up in two additional steps, it is there so rarely I don't know what the maximum rise is, but I'd say 50+ degrees over the house temperature. The HP is engineered to carry the house a 70 degrees with an outside temperature of 0 degrees without any need for resistive supplemental. We almost never see 0 degrees here in NJ, but the HP would presumably be running constantly in the high speed HP mode, which is running us about 50 cents an hour for electricity, that's $12 per 24 hours, which would peg our electric bill at about $400 for a full month of this level of heating, we've never seen even $300 for the worst month. So, I've always considered my wood/coal heat as back-up, the HP is primary. If I can get the wood, I'll run the wood insert many evenings, but not normally during the day.

 

[jebatty]

jebatty,
Very comprehensive multi-tier heating plan - I hope you turn up the LP system at least one a year to be sure it operates and the "cob webs" are blown/burned out.

We always give the LP heater a good test before winter really sets in, just to make sure the thermocouple works, it fires up, and the thermostat turns it on and off as it supposed to.

 

[dvellone]

For what it's worth I read a review of heaters - nat. gas, propane, oil- a while back in Fine Woodworking which focused on efficiency. They ultimately concluded that the cost effectiveness of the heat source was actually more dependent on how well the space is insulated than the efficiency of the heat source. The percentage difference in efficiencies didn't add up to a whole lot when the space was well insulated. My case here at my home is a good example. I built an 800 sq. ft. cabin using very old salvaged windows (no thermal panes), and although I insulated well it is very leaky. I installed a pretty efficient propane furnace and spent $400./ month the first winter (05 prices!). Installed the woodstove the following fall and burned a lot of wood. Sealed most of the leaks, storms on windows and heating primarily with wood I'm down to around 5 1/2 (face) cords. I use the furnace for early mornings, below 0 temps and occasional weekends away and the fuel delivery guys don't even know me by name anymore. So, whether it's oil, gas or electric, none of it is cheap anymore - time to batten down the hatches and keep any of those companies from digging too deep into your wallet!