Where do we go from here? Wood stove or propane fireplace???

[Laughable Moments]

Hi there,

Mrs. Laughable Moments here. DH and I are pretty discouraged by the first fires of the season in our Englander NC 30 wood stove in our family room. We used this stove, new last year, with a masonry chimney up through the center of the house. We loved how it ran, but it's a little too small to heat the entire house adequately.

We are getting ready to install a Lammpa Kuuma 100 wood furnace in the basement to the masonry chimney and we moved the Englander out to the family room. It shipped out this morning--woo!

The family room is a one story addition, 15.5' x 25' with its own crawl space, exposed to the wind on the east, west, and north sides (catching all of the prevailing winds.) The rest of the house is a 2 story with a walk up attic on a very windy hill. The stovepipe for the Englander goes straight through the ceiling at the lowest part of the roof of the addition. The triple wall chimney is installed to spec's, high enough to account for the rise at 10', etc.

When we fired up the stove, we had terrible back-draft problems. The whole house smelled like smoke. Yuck! Even with the damper all the way open, we still had difficulty getting a good burn. We still have some windows in the second story to replace and some tightening up of the attic to be done, so it's possible this is adding to our issues, as well.

Our question is this: Do we fiddle with the Englander some more, try adding more chimney height, a special cap for windy locations.....? Or, do we find the Englander a deserving new home and install a direct vent propane fireplace instead?

Our goals are these:

1. To have supplemental heat to help us through the shoulder seasons.
2. To have something that we can snuggle up to, as DH works outside in the winter and really needs something more than warm forced air to get himself back up to temp. when he comes home at night.
3. Ambiance. A fire is just nice to have around.

We are wondering if a direct vent propane fireplace would handle the windy location better than the wood stove, give us the hot heat when desired, and of course, give us a nice view, without the mess of the wood stove. How much do these puppies cost to run for the heating season?

Thanks for any advice you can offer!

 

[Ashful]

I just pulled out a propane insert last year, so I can speak a little to this. They do throw substantial radiant heat, if you have a large viewing area. My propane fireplace (Mendota 40... a big'un!) was nice to roast in front of, and the blower meant it did a reasonable job of heating. Trouble was, I never enjoyed it, because the high price of propane was always nagging in the back of my mind. If I'd had natural gas, it probably wouldn't have bothered me so much to run the insert.

On the stove, the NC-30 is always reported to be a very substantial heater. That ship has sailed, since you've already moved it and ordered your furnace, but I wonder if you were really getting everything from it you could, in terms of fuel quality, installation, and operation. I'm heating about 6400 sq.ft. of very drafty ca.1773 farm house with two wood stoves, with fairly minimal help from my oil-fired boiler.

 

[DAKSY]

If it were MY house, I'd try to make the Englander work. DV gas units can also have venting issues with prevailing winds & the resultant soot deposits on your house & inside your appliance are pretty tough to clean up without getting black stuff everywhere. The operational cost for an LP unit depends on how much you pay per gallon of fuel, & how many gallons you burn. There are roughtly 92K BTU in a gallon of LP & that means a 30K BTU (input) unit will burn about a gallon every 3 hours. According to NYSERDA, Western NY is averaging about $2.43 a gallon for LP (TODAY), & that price is constantly fluctuating...So it'll cost you about that much for 3 hours worth of heat. Is that enough to get & keep your husband warm? If not, you'll need more fuel (& more money)...Your call...

 

[Laughable Moments]

Thank you Joful and Daksy for your helpful replies. I crunched the numbers, and came up with about $375 per month for the LP unit during the coldest months, seeing that we use the family room all day long most days. Hmph. That could quickly get to be a drag.

With that being the case...what specific recommendations should we follow to get the Englander to stop back drafting?

Here are some pictures of our setup, if that helps. (This place is a work in progress.)

First three pictures are of the north side.
Fourth picture is of the NW corner.

Fifth is the SW corner, taken from near the bottom of the hill.

6th is the chimney from one of the upstairs windows.

Last is an inside shot.

 

[Grisu]

You need to increase your chimney height. The manual calls for at least 15 ft; it looks like you have barely 10'. Double-wall stovepipe inside will also help keeping the flue gases hot enough for proper draft.

How dry is your wood?

Not to be a bother, but what is under the tiles of the hearth? The 30NC needs thermal protection with a r-value of at least 1.5. Most of the time that means a raised hearth to get enough insulating layers under it.

 

[DAKSY]

Hmm. One would think that location would work well with the prevailing winds coming from the west, but there just might be a swirling effect due to the higher roof. I'd definitely try at least one more 3' section. I know it may not be aesthetically pleasing, especially since you'll need a roof brace kit, but it may just mitigate your back-puffing issues...

 

[Laughable Moments]

Do we need to go even more than 3' of additional pipe?

I just measured and we have 5.5' from the stove top to the ceiling. I checked our order for the rest of the pipe and saw that we ordered a 6" through the ceiling kit and 2 36" triple wall pipes. So, it looks like we're a little shy of 15' right now.

There's a 1" layer of cement board under the tile of the hearth. Not sure if the stove pipe is single or double wall, I'll have to check with DH on that.

Is there a special wind cap that you'd recommend, or will the extra chimney pipe take care of it?

Thank you!

 

[Grisu]

First, the hearth is inadequate. Even if you have Durock next gen in there it would give you only about 0.8 in r-value with the tile. (broken link removed) Please refrain from using the stove until you have addressed that issue.

You have a bit more pipe than I estimated but you are still short. Just as a test you could add 3 ft of stovepipe on top and see if you get a better burn. If that is the case, get some real chimney pipe and a bracing kit and extend the chimney.

 

[DougA]

We've had some bad weather conditions in our area for wood stoves. You may or may not find that waiting a few days will make a big difference. Personally, I'd wait, make sure your wood is very dry and then see what happens. If still a problem, add some chimney. Problem is that chimney costs a lot and if it doesn't solve your problem, you can't take it back once used - although I've seen enough used stuff on the store shelves lately.

 

[Woody Stover]

might be a swirling effect due to the higher roof.

Yeah, looks like a strong wind from the NW could be a problem. I'm no draft expert but I'm guessing additional chimney might be a big improvement. Anything over 5' total will require bracing. As suggested, you can test weather it will work with some cheap snap-together stove pipe from the farm store to see weather it's worth investing in chimney. Still unanswered are the questions of weather conditions when you experienced low draft. Windy? Not very cold out? And what kind of wood, and how long has it been split and stacked? Since you were getting good results before, I'm gonna assume your fuel is at least passable...

 

[mfetcho]

These caps make a big difference in windy areas. I installed one when I lived on a prairie that had frequent wind. It solved my down draft issues!

(broken link removed)

 

[Ashful]

I'm with Daksy, in that I'd move that stove back to the tall chimney, and give it another go. It drafted well there, and that stove should put out enough heat to keep that small house pretty warm, with fairly minimal help from whatever your primary / automatic heating source may be. If you have no other source of heat, then I guess that's another matter...

 

[Laughable Moments]

I'll share this thread with DH when he gets home. I appreciate all your ideas, and we'll have to work on that hearth.

If we were only heating the main house, I agree the Englander would probably have been sufficient. We're dealing with a few more factors though. The wind here is extreme. We plan to heat the basement wood shop with the Kuuma, as well as the attic which will be turned into living space, and eventually, we'd like to make the underside of the family room into living space as well. The Englander is an incredible stove, but I don't think it'll quite handle all of that.

 

[weatherguy]

First, the hearth is inadequate. Even if you have Durock next gen in there it would give you only about 0.8 in r-value with the tile. (broken link removed) Please refrain from using the stove until you have addressed that issue.

You have a bit more pipe than I estimated but you are still short. Just as a test you could add 3 ft of stovepipe on top and see if you get a better burn. If that is the case, get some real chimney pipe and a bracing kit and extend the chimney.

She says 1", isn't that more than one layer of durock?

 

[Grisu]

She says 1", isn't that more than one layer of durock?

Half inch layer is 0.39 so 1" + tiles comes to about 0.8.

 

[Charles1981]

More chimney will help draft.

Colder winter temperatures will help draft.

Make suggested corrections and wait for winter to really set in.

If you aren't happy with results with it is colder and over the course of the winter..then make further decisions.

But I wouldn't get rid of the stove just yet.

 

[Laughable Moments]

Thank you all for your help as we try to figure out how to heat our home. My wife just showed me the feedback and I am impressed how helpful you all are. We will not be using the nc-30 on that hearth now that we understand the r-value it requires under it. We appreciate the other ideas that we can use to make a decision in the next few days about how to heat the family room.

 

[Grisu]

We are happy to help. If the goal is to mainly heat the family room the 30NC should have no problem with that. It's probably even too much of a stove for that especially once you finished your renovations and the place will hopefully be more airtight. A bit more pipe may all be that's needed to get it to draft better.

Sorry also for the bad news about the hearth. That's an awesome tiling job.