Which see-through to heat big house (possible?)

[deadtvs]

Hi - lurker and wood heat neophyte here. I heated my <1000SF cabin for 15+ years with an old VC Resolute - great old stove - so I'm not completely new to wood heating, but...

I now live in a 3400SF 1.5 story ranch-style house in Western CO. We are killing ourselves with propane and electric costs, and looking to replace a centrally-located see-through gas fireplace with a high-efficiency wood-burning fireplace/insert. My questions are:

Omnibus question: Is this even a good idea? I don't expect to heat entirely with the fireplace, though 50% or better would be good. The alternative would be to run NG to the house, and that's at least $10K-15K - I'd rather do the wood heat thing.

Specific question 1: I really want to keep the see-through feature, though I suspect that limits my options drastically

Specific question 2: I've mostly been looking at Acucraft units, but the little I've seen people talk about them, they don't seem that well-liked. Can anyone suggest other brands that have large, effiicient see-through units (preferably with options discussed in the next question)

Specific question 3: Our house has a first-floor footprint of roughly 40x80, fairly open except for a long hallway leading to bedrooms. The existing forced-air ductwork is sub-floor and fairly accessible. Is it possible/reasonable to get a unit (such as some of the Acucraft) that "splices" into the existing ducts? And how about hot water? Given the distance from our furnace to the master bath, it takes literally 2-3 minutes to get hot water in the shower! (If we don't figure out a way to wood-heat the H2O, I will likely invest in a tankless heater for the two most-distant bathrooms.)

A couple facts:

1) We have 23 heavily-wooded acres, with substantial dead-standing to start with - not too worried about wood supply.

2) The house is pretty well insulated and sealed. I will probably get an audit done before moving forward, but wanted to see if people even thought this was a reasonable idea to begin with.

3) The only good thing about the existing fireplace is that it really is very central to the whole house. I also THINK it has a wood-burning-capable chimney in place - I suspect they had a wood-burner in there at some point. Obviously I will check that out further if we move forward.

Thanks for reading - sorry for the novel, just tried to get as many questions/facts in at the outset.

 

[Jags]

Start by finding out what your chimney really is. That being said:

You are looking for a see through fireplace/stove that has the ability to connect to duct work and heat water? I have never heard of one that meets all 3 criteria - maybe someone else here has.

And welcome to the forum.

Any possibility that a stand alone stove would work in that place? Some are quite nice looking from all angles. Pics of the current setup would help.

 

[begreen]

This is a swiss army knife approach. One tool that does all. It's probably not going to happen. I would focus on the priority - heating if heating the place for a reasonable cost is the goal. Everything else is icing on the cake. If the chimney can safely be used with a liner, and if a wood insert can safely fit and be installed, the primary goal may be met. The wood stove being double-sided and/or water heating are unlikely.

I'm wondering if an add-on wood furnace is an option? Is there a basement? Is the home hot water boiler or hot air furnace heated?

 

[mellow]

1. I have yet to see anyone burning in a double sided fireplace get heat from it.
2. All the units I have seen are Zero Clearance and would require ripping out the existing and starting new
3. Some single sided ZC units can be adapted to your central air ducts, none that I am aware of for hot water

Get us some pictures of the setup, that is a whole lot of sq to try and heat with a single source of wood heat.

 

[deadtvs]

Wow! That's some fast responses - thanks everyone.

@Jags - As I mentioned, I've primarily been looking at Acucraft, the larger models listed here: http://www.acucraft.com/products/wood-fireplaces.asp. If you look at their "Popular Options", they show both a hot water loop and duct heat - both seem like great ideas, if they work! I have no objection to a stove/insert, provided it was double-sided - and I think I've only turned up a very generic-looking double-sided stove in lots of searching.

@begreen - yes, heating is the primary goal, but aesthetics is not-too-distant second - the existing fireplace is the best feature of our home, I'd hate to lose that - though I would consider a near-complete tear-down rebuild if the payoff was sufficient. I will try to attach/upload pics with this post.

@mellow - your #1 was not what I wanted to hear (but was afraid I would) . And yes, ripping out is not out of the question. I'm not that crazy about the finish work on one side already. As for SF to heat, I've pretty much written off heating the upstairs with this (kids' playroom primarily - they have lots of sweaters!), so we're looking at roughly 2500 that I would like to heat - as I said, 50% or better is my rough goal. I expect we'll still need the forced-air for supplemental. I have also toyed with the idea of a separate pellet unit back by the bedrooms.

pics attached - hopefull you can see them.

 

[mellow]

I would keep that and put a free standing wood stove against an outside wall, that would be a cheaper option than redoing that.

 

[begreen]

That's why I asked about the primary heating system and whether there is a basement or not. If it's hot air heated an add-on, wood furnace might be an option.

PS: Thanks for posting the Acucraft link. I'm looking for info about efficiency or EPA rating but haven't found it yet.

 

[fossil]

Given the distance from our furnace to the master bath, it takes literally 2-3 minutes to get hot water in the shower! (If we don't figure out a way to wood-heat the H2O, I will likely invest in a tankless heater for the two most-distant bathrooms.)

Recirc pump. Can be on a timer if you like. Talk with a plumber about it. Rick

 

[Grisu]

Recirc pump. Can be on a timer if you like. Talk with a plumber about it. Rick

That sounds like a cheap option but in the end can cost you lot more. Keeping the water in the line hot all the time will increase your propane usage plus the added electricity cost.
http://www.builditsolar.com/Projects/Conservation/Recirc/RecircEnergy.htm
A tankless hot water heater is not a bad idea.

 

[begreen]

We have a Grundfos pump recirc system with built-in timer. In order to keep heat loss to a minimum all hot water pipes on this remote loop are insulated. The increase in electrical use has been negligible. Probably because we no longer run the water to get it hot in the remote bathroom. The only downside is that you need to reset the timer when the power goes off. It's out of sight and therefore out of mind.

(broken link removed)

 

[deadtvs]

@mellow - yes, I've thought about that, but don't see a way to get "central heating" that way. The logical locations are at one end of the house or the other, and not likely to help much - except maybe the bedrooms at night, since they are clustered at one end. It might be semi-reasonable to put a unit down there somewhere. Not sure it would be worth it in terms of savings on propane, which is the main motivator here.

@begreen - sorry, I did forget to answer that in my last reply. The primary heating unit (forced air propane) is in a utility room located 3/4 of the way to one end of the house - opposite end from bedrooms, unfortunately. Your idea is very intriguing. I had seen some "homemade" versions of that - are there commercial products along those lines? There is plenty of room in the utility area, and running stovepipe from there probably wouldn't be too bad. There is no basement, but a "tall" crawlspace throughout (4-5').

@fossil - thanks - I will look into that! Given our low winter water temps, I'm not sure an electric tankless would be adequate, and it would be a looong gas line run if we went that route, so good to have another option.

No comments on Acucraft specifically? I'm getting the impression their claims for their units - which fueled my initial ideas - are indeed "too good to be true". I was hoping maybe they were close enough to be semi-cost-effective, but perhaps not.

And again, thanks everyone for your thoughts and replies - this is a great forum!

 

[begreen]

The height of the utility area presents a clearances challenge. There are some good, clean burning and efficient wood furnaces made, but it sounds like this would not be practical due to clearance requirements for the furnace, supply duct and flue. Also, you will be feeding this furnace a lot of wood over the winter, so good, easy access is important. Hauling wood around while hunched over in a crawlspace doesn't sound ideal.

What is the size of the house? Ceiling heights? If possible can you post a simple floor plan sketch?

 

[Grisu]

Where in CO do you live? At least some counties have pretty strict emission requirements for wood burning appliances. (broken link removed to http://www.bouldercounty.org/env/healthyhome/pages/cowoodburnregs.aspx)
I doubt that those Accufire fireplaces fulfill those regs as nowhere on their site I can find any mentioning of EPA-testing. You will need to ask them specifically about that. (And I would also ask them about the efficiency of their units. 150,000 BTU/hr claimed heat output is a lot; in a 50% efficient appliance that's about 2 cu ft of hardwood per hour. You will be cutting a lot of wood.)

 

[fossil]

That sounds like a cheap option but in the end can cost you lot more. Keeping the water in the line hot all the time will increase your propane usage plus the added electricity cost.

Not necessarily true. The pumps are really small, and using a timer keeps the cost way down. I've had them in two houses and been very pleased.

 

[Grisu]

Not necessarily true. The pumps are really small, and using a timer keeps the cost way down. I've had them in two houses and been very pleased.

Yep, not neccessarily true. A lot depends on the proper install by using a timer, insulate pipes, chose an energy-efficient unit etc. I just wanted to point out that simply slapping a pump into the existing system may backfire. We should also not forget that on-demand heaters often use less energy which will reduce overall energy consumption for hot water while a circ pump is increasing it, the question is only by how much.

 

[webby3650]

That's going to be a big project to remove all that, but not impossible.
I'm guessing that fireplace you want is not very efficient, probably EPA exempt. It's very hard to get see thru fireplaces EPA approved, that's why you don't see very many of Ben on the market.
Supreme has a see thru that's approved and highly efficient. These things crank the heat! Just another option.
(broken link removed to http://www.supremem.com/opus_see-through_fireplace.php)

 

[deadtvs]

Wow, again, so much info and food for thought - thanks all! I will try to get a rough floor-plan together and other facts requested. I am at work and probably won't be able to do that today, though. One easy answer for @Grisu - I'm in Ouray county, which I don't think has much in the way of restrictions - but I will check.

 

[Ashful]

I'm heating a larger house, and just settle for keeping two stoves running 24/7. They'll never do the job on their own, but I have cut my oil bill in half. Every BTU you get from wood is less you need to extract from oil. We have settled for keeping the automatic thermostats (6 zones on oil, one zone on propane, three zones electric, one zone heat pump... soon to be three heat pumps) doing their thing to keep temps where they want them, and just keep feeding both stoves as we can. I have cut our heating costs down from approximately $7000 per year to about $4000 per year, despite adding to the heated square footage.

So, my advice is to not get yourself too worked up about heating the joint entirely with wood. Burn wood at the level you enjoy, the boiler will pick up the slack. You'll still save money, at the rate of roughly 175 gal. oil ($700) per cord of wood burned.

We have a centrally located boiler with a BoilerMate for DHW located in the boiler room directly below our main kitchen (which is below the master bath), but we do have one electric water heater located directly adjacent to the bathroom and kitchen farthest from the boiler room, to supply hot water to those two sets of appliances. Depending on usage frequency, an on-demand might be more efficient, if you have the utilities to support it.

 

[deadtvs]

Good morning! I put together a rough floor plan - can't find the "real" one. (Sorry - I loaded it last so it's below all the pics.) This is not to scale, but not far off - I have a fair "eye-tractor"! The blue circle is the location of the existing fireplace. I also took pics of the existing fireplace with more context, and a couple of the utility closet. The closet shows as the narrow unlabeled room in the "Mud/Util" space. The closet is over 50% empty (discounting "junk" shelf) - plenty of room for "something", though the depth is only about 3', so it might be too shallow. I would even consider pushing the wall out, if that "something" made it worthwhile - it's just in a mud room that is oversized anyway. Ceiling heights throughout are 8.5'.

At this point, I'm semi-giving up on replacing the existing fireplace, since most of the responses have been fairly negative on that idea. Seems the most efficient might be to put a wood-burner in the utility area and duct it into existing system. There is existing exhaust pipe (obviously), and it's just off the garage, so access isn't bad. Woodpile could even be in garage - there is plenty of space.

Any additional thoughts most welcome.

Thanks again.

 

[mellow]

Can a unit like the Drolet Tundra go into the Laundry room with a class A chimney out the side and up? Seems like that would be the best and move the Laundry to the mud room? I would put a door for access to garage to store some wood in.

You will need new exhaust venting rated for wood burning appliances.

 

[Grisu]

The closet will probably be too small for a woodfurnace plus its clearance requirements. Here would be another example of a possible unit: (broken link removed)
Check page 15 to see how much room you will need.

 

[begreen]

If you want to do a wood add on furnace, it's going to take a wood furnace with very close clearances to fit in this location. I recently saw a unit on the market from Napoleon that might work. I don't know a lot about this furnace, but it does answer the clearance issue - it's model is HMF100. Here's some info and the installation manual.
(broken link removed to http://www.napoleonheatingandcooling.com/products/hmf100-furnace/)
http://www.napoleonproducts.com/downloads/hvac/manuals/updated/W415-1066.pdf

 

[byQ]

You know they build masonry heaters with doors on two sides don't you? A 2-door heater will lose more of the radiant heat than a one-door masonry heater but gain more convection type of heat (through the greater glass area). That existing fireplace would have to be knocked out. You already have the foundation and the flue (maybe the flue would need a little work). This guy, Norbert Senf, now of the Alliance of green heat, has designed masonry heaters for this type of situation, and than a local masonry heater builder builds it.

 

[webby3650]

You know they build masonry heaters with doors on two sides don't you? A 2-door heater will lose more of the radiant heat than a one-door masonry heater but gain more convection type of heat (through the greater glass area). That existing fireplace would have to be knocked out. You already have the foundation and the flue (maybe the flue would need a little work). This guy, Norbert Senf, now of the Alliance of green heat, has designed masonry heaters for this type of situation, and than a local masonry heater builder builds it.

Unfortunately he doesn't have the flue or the foundation. He has a zero clearance unit.

 

[mellow]

I am sure he has $30,000+ set aside for a masonry heater project.