That's a good practical choice. I had mentioned the other stoves trying to suggest similar classic looking aesthetics to the Vigilant. But for heat, the Ideal Steel is big and a good value.
Will I be disappointed replacing an old Vermont Castings with a new stove?
- Thread starter Graycenphil
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Rearscreen
Minister of Fire
That works, we gather birch bark from fallen trees and use that to start as the bark has tar in it.
Ashful
Minister of Fire
Can’t say anything bad about the Ideal Steel or Woodstock. I went BK, and believe they’re superior for a few good reasons, but these two brands are both top ranking on customer service, performance, and quality.
Rearscreen
Minister of Fire
Ashful
Minister of Fire
Several, but the two biggest are:
1. Burn time. BKs can run 30 - 40 hours on a single load of wood, which is a feature i depend on. Woodstock’s best is... what, one third that time?
2. Convective design. This can be extremely important to anyone putting the stove in a masonry fireplace, or adjacent to an uninsulated exterior masonry wall. Radiant stoves do not work well within line of sight of exterior masonry, I proved that in perhaps the most spectacular fashion, with big Jotul Firelights stuffed into my two fireplaces.
Oh, one more:
3. A company VP who offers to come to my house and restock my fallen wood piles for me. True story.
Ashful i am curious about those burn times as i have not personally owned a bk. Is there anyway this next season when you burn you can load up and show every hour or so what the firebox looks like on a say 35 hour burn and put stove top temps as well. I know it would be a little bit of a pain but if you could do that it would personally help me out. Are you getting solid heat from the bk for 35hrs or maintaining embers.
kennyp2339
Minister of Fire
I confirm it, also a vp that constantly travels all over our country and offers anyone to meet him out for a drink or two when he's in the area.
But in all seriousness, BK is a company that's there for there customers, I have had the privilege in talking to there tech staff and the professionalism was excellent.
Rearscreen
Minister of Fire
BK's of course are great stoves. Just wanted to know it's superiority. Ashful how many cords do you typically use in a heating season and how many square feet are you heating?
kennyp2339
Minister of Fire
He's got a castle, think big with (2) ashfords going 24/7 burning close to 10 cords a season, his place has a lot of stone walls, windows and little insulation, 19th century construction, that's why he's so adamant on convective stoves, radiant stove heat would just get sucked up into the walls.
weatherguy
Minister of Fire
The ideal steel has been known to go 24 hours, one guy documented his burn with a load of oak, still not 30 but close.
A gentle reminder again of forum rule #8
#8 Can I complain and/or praise/pump my particular stove?
Of course! However, it must be in a proportional manner and not as a "sales pitch".
What this means is that you and every other purchaser has a right to place a rating/review on our special section at:
http://www.hearth.com/talk/ratings.php
However, quoted from our original forum rules, please note:
"It is against the Forum Rules to spend endless threads promoting a certain brand or product, even if you don't financially benefit from it (and, of course, if you do!)."
https://www.hearth.com/talk/faq/
Graycenphil's main concern is BTUs. They want equivalent or greater heat. What is superior to one person is not necessarily so for another. Houses, climate zones and personal needs vary greatly. So do budgets. Beware of fanboys. Everyone thinks their stove is the greatest.
#8 Can I complain and/or praise/pump my particular stove?
Of course! However, it must be in a proportional manner and not as a "sales pitch".
What this means is that you and every other purchaser has a right to place a rating/review on our special section at:
http://www.hearth.com/talk/ratings.php
However, quoted from our original forum rules, please note:
"It is against the Forum Rules to spend endless threads promoting a certain brand or product, even if you don't financially benefit from it (and, of course, if you do!)."
https://www.hearth.com/talk/faq/
Graycenphil's main concern is BTUs. They want equivalent or greater heat. What is superior to one person is not necessarily so for another. Houses, climate zones and personal needs vary greatly. So do budgets. Beware of fanboys. Everyone thinks their stove is the greatest.
Plenty of burns shown in the blaze king performace threads over the years. I think I made the first one for the 2012- 2013 season. My Princess is an easy 24 hours but I rarely shoot for more than that. This isn’t going to get the job done when winter is in full swing, these are shoulder season burns for me.
Ashful
Minister of Fire
Begreen is always great for bringing us back on point. He has to wrangle us BK owners a bit, since we are such big fans of this brand, but with good reason. The same can be said for Woodstock, they are a fantastic company, in every way. If other brands receive less praise, it's not by accident.
The reason we like this capability so much is that it's just more flexible to have a wider range of output selection:
1. It provides a more constant temperature than the uneven/cyclical heat output of most other stoves.
2. It gives us an ability to burn on days where other stoves might overheat the joint.
These comments are applicable to any catalytic stove (begreen), although BK really does this exceedingly well.
I use 6 - 10 cords per year, depending more on my ambition and dedication than my heating needs. I load one of my stoves 2x per day, and set the thermostat to a position that ensures a complete burn over that 12 hour cycle. I load the other 1x per day, and accordingly set that thermostat to a position that ensures a complete burn over a 24 hour cycle. I let the central heating system(s) pick up any slack, and parts of the property not connected to the stoves. I'm in this to save money and have some fun, without driving myself or my family insane.
So this brings up the usual disclaimer, BK's are great stoves, but they are not magic. In order to stretch 35 hours out of a single 3 cu.ft. load of wood, you must burn at a very low rate and the heat output will be low. The firebox will be smouldering black box, just producing wood gas for the combustor to "eat". The combustor will average 750 - 1500F over the first two thirds of the load, and this becomes the primary source of heat. The convection deck on the Ashford 30 directs air flow across the top of this combustor, extracting the heat.
The reason we like this capability so much is that it's just more flexible to have a wider range of output selection:
1. It provides a more constant temperature than the uneven/cyclical heat output of most other stoves.
2. It gives us an ability to burn on days where other stoves might overheat the joint.
These comments are applicable to any catalytic stove (begreen), although BK really does this exceedingly well.
I am heating about 7600 sq.ft., but less than 6000 sq.ft. of that might be considered stove load. Of that total, about half is un-insulated mud-stacked masonry construction (mid-1700's) with original doors and windows. I have 60 windows and a dozen doors, about half of which are more than 200 years old and not what one would call air-tight.
I use 6 - 10 cords per year, depending more on my ambition and dedication than my heating needs. I load one of my stoves 2x per day, and set the thermostat to a position that ensures a complete burn over that 12 hour cycle. I load the other 1x per day, and accordingly set that thermostat to a position that ensures a complete burn over a 24 hour cycle. I let the central heating system(s) pick up any slack, and parts of the property not connected to the stoves. I'm in this to save money and have some fun, without driving myself or my family insane.
There are many brands that get little said about them because they are so trouble free. Folks enjoy year after year of good heat without problems of tinkering, cat burnout and short life, bypass adjusting, creosote buildup, dark glass, etc.. Simply put, cat stoves can be wonderful, but they are not for everyone. That's a good thing. Variety makes the world more interesting. In purchasing, some people prefer a KISS design. Cladding a steel stove with a cast iron jacket has largely addressed temperature swing issues and at the end of the day, when the stove is being pushed for winter heating the differences become much less.
So once and finally - endless posting promoting a certain brand is against the forum rules.
"The reasoning is simple - if a single member has 200 posts complaining about a certain product or brand, it tends to slant the forum in a direction which may not be accurate. However, if 20 members review their stove in our ratings sections and have poor experiences, that is likely to mean a lot more. The same goes for positive reviews and posts. If a member starts a thread saying "Do you like your Upland Stove?", you are certainly free to answer in the affirmative and point to the stove review you posted. If they ask about the details how you run your Upland Stove, you should feel free to share. This is all educational as opposed to a sales pitch."
So once and finally - endless posting promoting a certain brand is against the forum rules.
"The reasoning is simple - if a single member has 200 posts complaining about a certain product or brand, it tends to slant the forum in a direction which may not be accurate. However, if 20 members review their stove in our ratings sections and have poor experiences, that is likely to mean a lot more. The same goes for positive reviews and posts. If a member starts a thread saying "Do you like your Upland Stove?", you are certainly free to answer in the affirmative and point to the stove review you posted. If they ask about the details how you run your Upland Stove, you should feel free to share. This is all educational as opposed to a sales pitch."
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Not to mention the fact that there are some of the bk fanboys that jump on anyone who suggests bks arent perfect for everyone
Rearscreen
Minister of Fire
I'm a radiant guy myself both in stoves and hydronic floor heat. However Ashful brings up the point about exterior masonry sucking up that precious warmth and delivering it to the bears outside. Excellent take away and so much a consideration when choosing a stove.
kennyp2339
Minister of Fire
Absolutely, if I had a bigger place I would def wanna try the Kuma sequoia, big fire box with a natural convection deck, (watch the video) and a big window for some good radiant quality
Ashful
Minister of Fire
Well said, begreen.
As to your last point, I don’t just promote one brand. I’m also a big fan of Woodstock and PE. If I’m down on Jotul, it’s only from having to personally deal with their factory support for several years, or very deliberate lack thereof.
And if I don’t exactly promote VC... well I’m in good company, there. Must we dig up some of our several moderators old posts on that subject?
The bigger point is that it’s impossible for most forum members to speak about more than one or two brands, as that’s all they’ve owned. I talk most about BK and Jotul, because that’s all I’ve owned. In this light, that forum rule is pretty senseless, for anyone but a few in the industry, who might have wider brand experience.
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If someone asks - do you like xxx brand stove, then that is an invite to speak about your experience with that specific brand stove. But when every thread asking for stove advice is pounced upon with long promotions for their favorite brand, it skews the discussion, the thread , the forum and ends up with an exaggerated and unhelpful bias. It has nothing to do with the quality of the product and everything to do with persons trying to dominate the thread by claiming their product is superior and every other choice is secondary. That certainly is not so and it hurts the value of the forum. This is why some of the Woodstock fanboys are no longer on this site. Great stoves, but what is good for one person's home may not be desirable for another's.
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Ashful
Minister of Fire
I understand your point completely. But folks are going to continue recommending the one or two stoves they’ve owned, if they find they’re working well for them. Particularly if they’ve done a lot of research before their own purchase, to understand the reported pros and cons others. It’s human nature, we just have to do our best to present the options as fairly as possible.
Of course, quoting numerical facts such as burn time numbers, is not the same as providing opinions. ;-)
I agree with you wholeheartedly. But to be fair in this case the op came here asking about bk stoves.
Highbeam
Minister of Fire
The Woodstock club is alive and well on another site and they get along great with us bk people. They left (or were banned) from this site mostly for other reasons according to them. The Woodstock line has some excellent features and the owners are happy.
The bk stove can do some very valuable things that no other stove can do. I was convinced by this forum to upgrade to a bk from a noncat. To try and balance a discussion by withholding relevant member contributions you risk simply shortchanging the discussion. That’s the kind of thing that really does push forum members away.
I certainly don’t spend much time in the stove review section. Does anybody?
The current isssue on this site that I run into is badgering, and misquoting to start fights, followed by more badgering. This is not my house, but moderator attention there would be great even if that means one telling me to shut up!
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Good points and Woodstock owners are very welcome. Stove reviews are very valuable to folks. Newcomers often go to the stove reviews first. They are seeking information on stoves they are considering for purchase. It makes sense that a satisfied stove owner and now enthusiast would not go there much. There's not a lot of reasons to. I don't go there very often, but I respect their value.
When badgering occurs mods do try and step in. Fortunately this is not too often. Not every thread is followed every day, so please use the report function when this is happening.
Did i start all of this??? If so i apologize as this was not my intention. I should of read more on bk reviews before typing. I was just trying to extract more knowledge and clarify from someone who owns one. For instance.. alot of stove manufactures will say things like x stove is rated to heat 2000 sqft. Ok.. but no specification is made as to what the outdoor ambient temp is the indoor ambient temp the ceiling height how insulated the house and how much of a temp rise you can expect to get as well as many other factors. Then right under the 2000 sqft it may say burn times of 30 hours. Now i know common sense comes into play here but since many manufactures play this game "advertising" unless you have owned or burned some of these units back to back its hard to tell whether say a large flushwood hybridfyre is comparable to a simlar sized catalytic bk insert in what its capabilities are. I was sincere in asking for output temps durning a 35hr burn and if they have already been posted i will look for them. If one were to do these low burns back to back continuously are you running a very hot fire for an hour or so to clean the firebox evey now and again to keep from accumulating a problematic amounts of creosote in the firebox?
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