Will this plumbing schematic work?

[patch53]

When I install my new system this summer I would like it to look like this if it will work. It is very similar to Nofossils "simplest pres. storage design" but with an additional zone added for my sunroom.

My plan is to use the Grundfos Alpha to run the 3 zone valved zones ( 2 baseboards and the DHW) and have a seperate pump on the sunroom in-floor radiant. The propane back-up boiler would only come on if the sytem water temp fell below 145F.

I have not included the usual stuff like safety pop-offs, auto fill valve, air seperators and shut-offs in the drawing for simplicity.

Take a look please and let me know what ya think.

thx, Pat

 

[Nofossil]

I'm pretty sure it would be better if you moved the radiant zone over to the right of the alpha and dropped the connections between it and the propane boiler. Just plumb it into the supply and return just like the other zones.

 

[WoodNotOil]

I agree with Nofo about moving the radiant zone to be the same as the other zones (just with a mixing valve). Assuming you are using the 500gal propane tank like a big hydro separator, you should be able to have the wood heat flow through the top and out to zones. If the tank is horizontal and the water has a long path to travel, then I am not sure if you are going to get full temp water to the zones. It would work better if the tank was vertical, but that might just not be feasable... Something to think about...

 

[patch53]

I'm pretty sure it would be better if you moved the radiant zone over to the right of the alpha and dropped the connections between it and the propane boiler. Just plumb it into the supply and return just like the other zones.

I put it before the Alpha because I wasn't sure how it would affect the Alpha's performance if the radiant zone was calling for heat at the same time as the other zones. The Alpha is always energized and works on Delta P. Do you think it will still work OK if I plumb the radiant zone after the Alpha?

I was going to run 1 1/4" pipe up the the "T" where the radiant zone branches off, and then 1" after that to the Alpha. I'm just not sure how having a pump AFTER the Alpha would affect its performance?

thx, Pat

 

[patch53]

I agree with Nofo about moving the radiant zone to be the same as the other zones (just with a mixing valve). Assuming you are using the 500gal propane tank like a big hydro separator, you should be able to have the wood heat flow through the top and out to zones. If the tank is horizontal and the water has a long path to travel, then I am not sure if you are going to get full temp water to the zones. It would work better if the tank was vertical, but that might just not be feasable... Something to think about...

My 500 gallon tank will be in my attatched garage, so the water from the tank will only have to flow about 20 feet to hit the zones so I'm not at all worried about getting good hot water to where its needed. My only concern is how the Alpha would be affected by another pump pulling water thru it. Will the Alpha just basically sit and run at minimal speed or will it speed up enough to supply water to the radiant zone pump?

thx, Pat

 

[WoodNotOil]

I'm pretty sure it would be better if you moved the radiant zone over to the right of the alpha and dropped the connections between it and the propane boiler. Just plumb it into the supply and return just like the other zones.

I put it before the Alpha because I wasn't sure how it would affect the Alpha's performance if the radiant zone was calling for heat at the same time as the other zones. The Alpha is always energized and works on Delta P. Do you think it will still work OK if I plumb the radiant zone after the Alpha?

I was going to run 1 1/4" pipe up the the "T" where the radiant zone branches off, and then 1" after that to the Alpha. I'm just not sure how having a pump AFTER the Alpha would affect its performance?

thx, Pat

Most systems that use zone valves with a single zone pump do all of the zones including radiant that way. With a pump sized correctly it should not be a problem. I am not familiar with that particular pump and of course I don't know what kind of zone lengths and head you are dealing with...

Your second question assumes that it would need its own pump, which it might not. If it did need its own pump, it is perfectly fine to have two pumps in series, however having the second pump only on the radiant zone would shift flow away from the other zones and through the radiant. So that would be out of the question. If it has its own pump, it needs to be piped before the main zone pump and be independant

 

[WoodNotOil]

I agree with Nofo about moving the radiant zone to be the same as the other zones (just with a mixing valve). Assuming you are using the 500gal propane tank like a big hydro separator, you should be able to have the wood heat flow through the top and out to zones. If the tank is horizontal and the water has a long path to travel, then I am not sure if you are going to get full temp water to the zones. It would work better if the tank was vertical, but that might just not be feasable... Something to think about...

My 500 gallon tank will be in my attatched garage, so the water from the tank will only have to flow about 20 feet to hit the zones so I'm not at all worried about getting good hot water to where its needed. My only concern is how the Alpha would be affected by another pump pulling water thru it. Will the Alpha just basically sit and run at minimal speed or will it speed up enough to supply water to the radiant zone pump?

thx, Pat

I was referring to the wood heated water traveling through the top of your propane tank to reach zones calling for heat instead of bypassing the tank to the zones as they would in Nofo's Simplest Press. piping. It would not be ideal if the 500 gallon tank had to come up to temp before you had usuable heat...

See my above post about the zone pump. You could always use a pump for each zone instead of zone valves and that way the flow would automatically be proportionate to the amount of zones calling for heat...

 

[patch53]

The only reason I have the radiant zone seperate is that I want to be sure I'm not putting too many zones on the Alpha. I beleive it can handle up to 4 zones, but I don't want to press my luck. I don't mind running the radiant on a seperate pump, I'm just not sure how to plumb it. I think it will work the way I have it shown. I will try calling Grundfos tech support in the morning and see what they say. If they say it can be plumbed after the Alpha with no problem I'll probably do it that way, if they're not sure I probably won't ?

Pat

 

[101x81]

i agree to move the in floor radiant on the main line.
i also will install a mixing valve on the dhw.
i will move the taco 00ron downstream of the baseboard line and wired with a SR503 who will start the pump soon there is call for heat on any zones.
with the taco 00r installed like this you are sure to get the full heat thru your baseboards and not having the water bypassing via the oil boiler.

i think this is o.k. even if my wife say i am always wrong

 

[Nofossil]

A radiant zone with its own circ and mixing valve will take only as much flow as it needs. The flow that it draws from the supply manifold will be much less than the flow through the radiant loops except when starting cold.

There is another option, and this is how I'm planning to plumb mine:

I'll plumb the radaint zone with a pair of closely spaced tees on the return manifold downstream from the baseboard zones. That way, the radiant zone will have the opportunity to drop the return temperature below what I would get from the baseboard returns. This should improve storage stratification. The caveat is that you must have at least one baseboard (or bypass) zone open in order to get heat to the radiant zone. In my case the radiant will supplement the main floor baseboards so that's no a problem.

 

[ewdudley]

A radiant zone with its own circ and mixing valve will take only as much flow as it needs. The flow that it draws from the supply manifold will be much less than the flow through the radiant loops except when starting cold.

There is another option, and this is how I'm planning to plumb mine:

I'll plumb the radaint zone with a pair of closely spaced tees on the return manifold downstream from the baseboard zones. That way, the radiant zone will have the opportunity to drop the return temperature below what I would get from the baseboard returns. This should improve storage stratification. The caveat is that you must have at least one baseboard (or bypass) zone open in order to get heat to the radiant zone. In my case the radiant will supplement the main floor baseboards so that's no a problem.

And to extend this idea a bit further, I've added contingency plumbing to facilitate adding a dummy bypass zone in parallel with all the hi-temp zones, with a NC Taco EBV that opens when no hi-temp zone is calling and a lo-temp zone is calling. [Bypass circuit would probably need some sort of flow-control/balancing valve in this configuration to get the flow rate down and to have something the Alpha could 'see'.]

I fully expect that there should be plenty of 'leftover' heat from the hi-temp zones, but if that doesn't work out I'll go ahead and plumb in the dummy zone.

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Looking at the original drawing, maybe I'm misinterpreting something but it looks like all three circ pumps have short-circuit paths. The sunroom pump can happy-turn through the LP boiler, and the other two are less subtle.