Wood Insert Sizing Question

[mrvco]

We bought a house a couple of years ago with a fireplace insert, it is basically a metal fireplace insert (probably installed when the house was built in '71) with a stone hearth and a stove pipe chimney (~8" inner diameter). It looks nice, but otherwise it is basically worthless. I'd like to replace it with a proper wood burning stove insert, but I have some questions on how to choose an insert.

Our primary means of heat is radiant hot water heat (natural gas fired boiler) with three zones sized appropriately for the house. The house is 2,200 sq ft and is a split level now with a finished upstairs and downstairs from the original construction and a finished mid-level that used to be the garage. The fireplace is on the top level with the kitchen, dining room and living room (~1,000 sq ft). I'd like the insert to get the upstairs warm and cozy (and take some load of the boiler) in colder weather. The house also sits at ~7,500 feet above sea level.

My plan is to have a professional do whatever installation is required, however I'm trying to get as knowledgeable as I can before I get the hard-sell at the local stove shops.

1) Would the existing insert typically be removed and replaced with a stove insert?
2) What measurements could I take from the existing insert to determine what size stove insert would fit?
3) What guidelines should I use for sizing an insert for a house with this layout and the stove on the upper floor?
4) How should I adjust the sizing for this altitude?

I don't want to buy too much stove, but I do want to get something with a decent burn-time.

Thanks in advance!

 

[begreen]

Greetings. I think there is some terminology confusion here. When you describe the existing unit as an insert do you mean a Zero Clearance (ZC) Fireplace. If yes, are you looking to replace the unit with a modern EPA ZC fireplace or to install a wood burning insert into the existing unit?

Altitude will affect draft. How tall is your chimney?

 

[DAKSY]

It's probably not an insert, but a Zero Clearance (ZC) wood burning fireplace. You're right about the worthlessness, tho. It's about as good as having a campfire in your living room. What you need to do is measure the opening. height, width & depth at the top & bottom. Measure the location of the flue centerline from the front of the unit. Measure the matel opening width & height
If you go here:

http://www.regency-fire.com/Products/Wood/Wood-Inserts/I3100.aspx#

Open the "Brochure" & go to the last page of that brochure. There is a measuring guide that you can print out.
Fill in the blanks & take it to your local dealer & see what he offers that will fit your configuration...
HTH

 

[bholler]

if it is a zero clearance unit you will need to pull it out and replace it with a modern zc unit that is more efficient you cant put an insert in a zero clearance unit.

 

[DAKSY]

if it is a zero clearance unit you will need to pull it out and replace it with a modern zc unit that is more efficient you cant put an insert in a zero clearance unit.

Not correct. There are PLENTY of wood burning inserts that can be installed in ZC boxes...

 

[begreen]

That was my thought. Here are the requirements for installing an insert into a ZC fireplace. Click to see full sized.

 

[mrvco]

Great stuff, thanks for the responses.

Hopefully we can remove what's in there now... or at least the facade (trim, doors, mesh curtain, etc.).

The chimney pipe is about 8 ft or so above where it comes out of the roof, maybe a foot or two above the peak of the roof. The ceilings are standard height upstairs, but I'll have to measure the distance between the ceiling and the roof (a rough guess would be 20 feet or so from the damper to the cap). I may be able to run a tape up the flue for an accurate measurement.

 

[begreen]

No problem, you are over 16 ft which is what I was checking for. ~20ft would be great. If you like the current look of a fireplace, but want real heat and clean burning, a replacement ZC fireplace could be installed in the same space. It would require a new chimney too. Cost could run from $6-10K depending on the scope of the work and choice of new fireplace. An insert would need a full stainless liner but would be less expensive coming in at around $3500-5000 depending on choice. This is definitely work to be done by a licensed pro shop.

Here is some info on the topic:
https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/articles/upgrading_a_pre-fab
https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/articles/install_insert

 

[mrvco]

Ok, that's starting to make more sense now. I didn't quite realize that a modern ZC fireplace was a viable option, actually I had never heard of them until we bought this house (growing up we had a brick-n-mortar fireplace). I got spoiled in my condo by the free-standing wood stove, so I've been trying to figure out how to replicate that experience as much as possible.

 

[begreen]

If there is enough width, some folks have torn them out and installed them in the alcove created. Only certain stoves will qualify because of clearances, but sometimes this is a nice alternative.

 

[bholler]

whose specs are those I am curious. because I would love to be able t do this for customers but I have never found any agency that would say it was ok. can you give me the reference please so I can possibly use it

 

[begreen]

They are from the Regency 2400i manual. The Avalon Rainier gets more specific about requirements including zc fireplace brands that are acceptable.

 

[bholler]

ok are those listed zc units ul tested for the insert to? I only ask because in my csia training and testing they dealt with this issue exactly. and they say that unless each of the units have been ul tested for that specific application we will be held liable for any damages resulting from any malfunction. their contention was that yes there are inserts and liners that say it is ok to put them in a zc unit but the zc units or their chimney systems are not listed for that purpose

 

[bholler]

I really am curious because if they are both listed I would love to do it. but I hanvt found a combination that I was comfortable with the liability issues yet.

 

[begreen]

I only ask because in my csia training and testing they dealt with this issue exactly. and they say that unless each of the units have been ul tested for that specific application we will be held liable for any damages resulting from any malfunction.

Sounds like a misinterpretation. The ZC inserts need to be tested to UL127 or ULC S610 to be qualified according to Regency, not tested for each specific application. You can be darn certain the stove mfgs. have examined liability issues with a magnifying glass.

I just checked Quadrafire's insert docs for the 3100i and they echo Regency's guidelines. PE and Napoleon are similar.

 

[bholler]

yes but csia's argument is that modifying the existing zc unit makes it not meet ul127 any more. and in ul127 it says that you need to use the internal grates supplied with the unit in 7.14 and that you cannot modify the existing damper. also zc units are only required to support 100 lbs per sq ft and I know many inserts exceed this