Wood stove or flush insert

[pitcrew]

I am debating between a stand alone wood stove or wood insert...any insight would be greatly appreciated.

I'm working with a brick fireplace that is 36Wx27Hx17D (at the smallest top point.) The fireplace has a steel Heatilator lining which makes me think that a stove would do a better job heating it up compared to the insert...any thoughts here? Looking for efficiency. Are there clear advantages to an insert over a stove?

I am considering between the Englander (summers heat) 13NC and 13NCi. To make the decision more interesting...the insert is $500 more the stove (though I don't see a huge difference in build.)

From my dimensions the stove should fit similar to this one: https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/19629/

 

[Dix]

Pit, a floor plan/layout to provide info on where the chimney is, and provide the best answers.

Is this a prefab FP? Your choices might be limited. And a stove might be a better idea, cost wise.

I had the same choice, stove or insert?

Welcome to the forums !!

 

[Green Energy]

I have a similar hearth and fireplace setup. For me it came down to a stove gets the heat out to the room better through natural convection where as the insert needs a fan, forced convection. There are times where you will want to use a fan with both, i.e., below 25 F nights. However, there are more times where you won't need a fan with the wood stove, but may with the insert. Also, when you have the stove out on a hearth, you get more radiation because there are more hot surfaces exposed to the room. So I would say that you get better heat transfer to the room with the stove. Also, for me, I was able to get a stove with side loading, which I prefer to front loading.

The disadvantage is that I need to make a hearth extension, mainly for ember protection. Not enough front clearance with the stove out on the hearth. Also, the stove is a more obvious part of the room. Some people may prefer the "cleaner" look of having the appliance recessed in the fireplace. Especially, in the summer when not in use. My old Dutchwest cast iron block did not have the stylish lines that my new Jotul Oslo has. So I think I will enjoy the lines of the Olso more. Fortunately, my wife who tends to be the interior decorator was much more concerned about function over form when it comes to heat. So she never complained about the stove being ugly. It was her source of warmth. So those were the considerations that were important to me.

 

[pitcrew]

My first floor is about 1000 sq/ft fairly open floorplan. Fireplace is at the top of my ghetto floorplan below in the center wall of my living room which is 12x30.

----------[^^^]----------
| |
| |
| |
| |
--| |------------| |--
| |||||||||| |
| |
| | |
| | |
------| |------------------

The fireplace and chimney are brick(not prefab). Fireplace is still functional but liner is showing it's age. Just wondering about the stove option because of the heatilator function of my current fireplace. When both are installed in a brick fireplace is an insert more efficient...or the other way around?

 

[pitcrew]

floor plan...didn't work so well.

For me it came down to a stove gets the heat out to the room better through natural convection where as the insert needs a fan, forced convection. Also, when you have the stove out on a hearth, you get more radiation because there are more hot surfaces exposed to the room. So I would say that you get better heat transfer to the room with the stove.

With the size of my opening and the model I'm looking at, a freestanding stove will sit back into the fireplace almost flush so not sure if I will get the radiation benefit that you describe. However...that is what I'm interested in because if the radiant heat warms the heatilator, perhaps that will amplify the stove output as well? I may be completely off track here...

 

[begreen]

If heat gain is the primary goal, then perhaps consider moving the stove forward on the hearth and out of the fireplace. The hearth can be extended if need be. Otherwise, get a stove with a blower.

Edit: I just saw that you are looking at top exit stoves. If they fit... be sure to get the blower.

 

[Green Energy]

Oh yeah, with a 27" height, you are limited to what stoves you can use if you need to get the flue up the chimney from the fire place. You are almost always limited to a rear discharge stove, or a 45 degree discharge. The Olso has a 28.25 high rear discharge (it also reverses the 45 to become a top discharge if needed), but I could lower it to 26" by going with the short leg kit. That is one reason I went with the Oslo, it fit my application.

If you go up with a stove pipe and through the wall above the smoke damper into the chimney, then rear discharge is not an issue. But it is a significant modification and the stove pipe will be a prominent feature above the stove.

 

[pitcrew]

I'm not following you on the exit pipe...top exit seems ideal for me. I don't see any sort of issue. My sizing/spacing is very similar to the photo link i refer to in my first post except I probably have a bit more room on the sides. It looks like they chopped the feet off of the legs to give them a little more room height-wise (not opposed to this if needed.)

At 22" high (insert) I have about 20 inches total to the back wall of the fireplace. Unit is only 14 inches deep giving me 6+ inches of wiggle room front to back. I would also have 5 inches top clearance going into the fireplace and over a foot to the existing damper once the unit is in.

At 26" high (stove) I have about 18 inches to the back of the fireplace. Unit is also only 14 deep giving me 4+ of wiggle room front to back (plus I can alway pull forward onto the hearth.) I would only have 1 inch of top clearance going in (without chopping the feet) but still about a foot once it is in place with plenty of access room from sides. Fireplace is 36" wide...unit is 26".

Maybe we're getting of subject on the fit. I think either model will work size-wise. My main question is if the heatilator should make me lean towards a stove or insert...or is it insignificant?
I have a metal firebox with 4 square vents on the front of the fireplace as well (no fans.)

 

[Wet1]

I have to agree with Pook on this one. No point in going with a stove if you're going to completely bury it in the fireplace.

 

[pitcrew]

gotcha.

only other factor in my mind was that the 2 models essentially are the same firebox but with a big price difference:

stove: $730
insert: $1250

I was hoping the stove had an extra heating advantage to save me $500 in my decision.

 

[Wet1]

I was hoping the stove had an extra heating advantage to save me $500 in my decision.

It will, but only if you install it outside of the fireplace itself.

 

[oconnor]

The heat tx to the masonary could be easily reduced with a metal shield running from the fireplace floor up the back and over the top of the firebox to allow natural convection. All the insert has is Essentially really short legs and a heat shield to create an air duct around the stove. Some Kaowool behind the sheild should reduce thermal transfer as well. Something to think about.

 

[paulie]

I would go with a hearth stove. move it out from the fireplace box. You will get more heat and won't have to listen to the fan blowing

 

[pitcrew]

The heat tx to the masonary could be easily reduced with a metal shield running from the fireplace floor up the back and over the top of the firebox to allow natural convection. All the insert has is Essentially really short legs and a heat shield to create an air duct around the stove. Some Kaowool behind the sheild should reduce thermal transfer as well. Something to think about.

I really appreciate the input...but now we've gone full circle...

Metal heatilator shield is what started this conversation as I was assuming leaving it intact with a stove inside would add to heat convection rather than take away. With an insert...seems that it will be rendered useless.

here is what i'm working with.

As you can see the firebox already has a metal "shield"

 

[fredarm]

paint it silver & throw the stove in.

Ditto. The Heatilator should act like the surround on an insert. Make sure you use a block-off plate at the damper.

 

[Green Energy]

I'm not following you on the exit pipe...top exit seems ideal for me. I don't see any sort of issue. My sizing/spacing is very similar to the photo link i refer to in my first post except I probably have a bit more room on the sides. It looks like they chopped the feet off of the legs to give them a little more room height-wise (not opposed to this if needed.)


Regarding the top verses rear discharge, I misunderstood that you would be placing the stove inside the fireplace. I thought you wanted to put the stove out in front of the fireplace on the hearth. I understand if you are putting the stove in the fireplace how a top discharging flue works. I am putting my stove out in front of the fireplace on the hearth. So I need a rear discharge to get the flue into the fireplace and then up the chimney. A disadvantage of the hearth installation is that I do not have enough front clearance and need to fabricate a hearth extension to make my installation code compliant. However, the hearth installation substantially increases the radiative heat tx into the room. Radiation heat transfer is proportional to hot surface area and line of sight to cooler surface areas. It is a matter of balancing the considerations that are important to you. For me, I also wanted to be able to use my side loading door.

 

[Dix]

The heat tx to the masonary could be easily reduced with a metal shield running from the fireplace floor up the back and over the top of the firebox to allow natural convection. All the insert has is Essentially really short legs and a heat shield to create an air duct around the stove. Some Kaowool behind the sheild should reduce thermal transfer as well. Something to think about.

I really appreciate the input...but now we've gone full circle...

Metal heatilator shield is what started this conversation as I was assuming leaving it intact with a stove inside would add to heat convection rather than take away. With an insert...seems that it will be rendered useless.

here is what i'm working with.

As you can see the firebox already has a metal "shield"

My heatalator system is working with the insert

Right now it's going down to 40ish here tonight,and I'm working on a coal bed. I've discovered that if it's that cold out side, I don't even need the fan on to heat the house (central chimney).

I do not have a steel fire box, although I have had suspicions for years that it is there, behind the brick. My thoughts are that if the power goes out, with the heatalator system still working, that we'll be warm, if nothing else

 

[pitcrew]

Thanks to everyone for the input. I'll let you know how i end up.