Wood vs...Heat pump?

[Dustin]

Folks,

After burning wood and pellets as a primary source of heat for the past 8 years, we moved.

Our new to us house has a propane fireplace, and an electric central furnace.

I already miss my stove(s), but, with a new baby here in less then 20 days, my wife is NOT on board with a wood stove at this point in our lives. Her main concern is the time it takes me to C/S/S, the mess, and all the other stuff that comes with it. She LOVED wood heat when it was just us, that was easy, we didn't mind coming home to a cold house after I worked 14 hours and she worked 12. But, with a new baby, that obviously changes.

Anyway, I guess I'm just looking for some advice / other experience to calm me down a little.

Our new to us home is about 1800 square feet. About 1000 upstairs and 800 downstairs. The downstairs is a finished daylight basement, most of it is underground. (Really nice this summer!) The downstairs has a propane fireplace. It's a fairly nice Heat n Glo with a blower, but I don't really consider this a heating source, maybe I'll be proved wrong when I use it.

The entire home heating system consists of a 15 year old electric furnace. The house is ducted with ports (if thats what you call them) in every room.

The power company says that the previous owners spent about 250 to 300 bucks a month during the winter. Wow! our rate is 0.064Kwh Granted, they were about 80 years old and probably kept it about 90 in here. Also, they had single pane aluminum windows which I just had replaced this week.

Anyway, I got a quote for a full install of a heat pump and new air handler. This will all connect up to our current duct work. It's gonna run me about 6500 before the power companies 1500 dollar rebate for installing it.

I guess my question is, am I crazy? I have never, ever owned a home with central heating / cooling. It's always been wood or pellets. I'm looking to keep the house around 70 and not pay 300 bucks a month to heat it.

Luckily in northwest Oregon, we have a pretty mild winter.

Thoughts?

 

[moey]

Assuming your electric rate you quoted of .065 kw/hr is all inclusive Id vote heavily on a heat pump and not look back.

 

[Z33]

Assuming your electric rate you quoted of .065 kw/hr is all inclusive Id vote heavily on a heat pump and not look back.

I am doubting this is the case. His rate my be .065 but once all the other charges are figured in I bet he is closer to .10.

I would get a few more quotes on your system. Unless you got some 18 seer super efficent multi speed heat pump it seems a little high since they are using existing duct-work.

I just replaced a 2.5 Ton Goodman heat pump here in Atlanta for 2100 bucks using the existing duct work

 

[prezes13]

It's just my opinion but I would rather put a nice cat stove like an ashford 30 from bk and even if I had to feed with compressed wood fuel I would rather do that than paying electric company.

 

[mellow]

I put a goodman heat pump system in 5 years ago, I use it till the temperatures consistently drop to the low 30's, then I will fire up the the insert to burn 24/7.

I am cold if rely on the heat pump set at 68 degrees (to cheap to go higher), the wife actually is the one bugging me to start burning, usually try to hold out till end of November around here.

I would say try the current setup for a season then make the changes the next year, start stocking up on wood now so you will have it if you do go that route.

 

[Highbeam]

Yes, I'm from near the area and you won't get an actual 6.5 cents per kwh unless you live in eastern Washington next to a hydro dam with a local power company. But maybe the OP is right. Use the fuel cost calculator on this site. Enter in your real power rate and the price of our excellent local pellets. Since either a pellet stove or heat pump will both cost the same for install, you can leave out equipment cost.

Now with an electric heat pump you will generally get better than 100% efficiency, often 300% is attainable but when it is real cold your home will be heated by resistance heat automatically. Don't forget about duct losses if you have ducts in the attic that can amount to 15+%.

After that you will know you cost per btu for heat for the two different fuels.

You can always buy the heat pump and later on add the pellet stove. Stage one for me would be a nice pellet stove (or other wood burner) and the resistance furnace for backup. Cheap and easy.

 

[PWash]

I'd get the heat pump installed. Is there a chance the $250 cost was a subsidized/lower rate payment for the elderly occupants? Sometimes people on fixed income get lower special rates from the power company..
With a heatpump you will be more comfortable and also increase resale value of the house. Also theres no reason you couldnt supplement with wood heat in the future.

 

[billb3]

If the heat pump is going to recover that 5K investment via savings within 5 years I'd do it.

 

[Dustin]

Thanks for the info guys.

The 0.064 kWh comes from my power bill I'm staring at. I'm serviced by a PUD. They do hit me with an 8 dollar residential customer charge, but that appears to be the only other charge.

This heat pump bid was the lowest. I had some companies wanting about 8,500 for essentially the same unit.

I would love to throw a wood stove in and call it a day but the wife won't buy off on it.

So the consensus is I can't really go wrong putting a heat pump in? Anyone ever run one for their only source of heat? If you did how was it?

I'm thinking, I buy this heat pump and eventually end up with wood as well. I have never done it, but I imagine using wood when you want too as a supplement, instead of a have too is a totally different ball game

 

[peakbagger]

It really depends on your ductwork. Leaky ductwork run outside of insulated space (in attic or under house) can eat up half your heating and cooling. Its worth getting an energy audit and seeing how much heat is being wasted. Dependiing on your layout go with a couple of minisplits. They tend to be more efficient than standard heat pumps and there is no duct loss. Its also easy to zone the spaces.

 

[moey]

Any idea what the previous owners kept the heat at? If they spent $250-$300 a month thats not bad youd be looking at about a 1/3 to 1/2 of that per month if they kept it at a reasonable temp with a new heat pump.

 

[Highbeam]

Anyone ever run one for their only source of heat?

Growing up we did it in the Puget sound region. The thing to remember about a central heat pump is that the air handler is equipped with a backup resistance heat coil that kicks on during defrost cyles and when the heat pump is unable to satisfy the thermostat. It's like two heating systems in one. This means that regardless of outside temperature, you will be able to heat your home. When that backup resistance coil kicks on you are burning straight electricity at 100% efficiency which is more expensive than the heat pump at 300% efficiency but it is seldom that your heat pump will be unable to keep up in the PNW.

The 0.064 kWh comes from my power bill I'm staring at.

So take the total dollars charged on that bill and divide it by the total kwh burned on that bill to come up with your cost per kwh. Don't let them trick you with a dozen little charges and taxes and tiers.

 

[Grisu]

So take the total dollars charged on that bill and divide it by the total kwh burned on that bill to come up with your cost per kwh. Don't let them trick you with a dozen little charges and taxes and tiers.

I have seen that recommendation already a few times here but it just does not make sense if you want to calculate how much you can save by reducing your consumption or you would need to pay by adding to it. The only charges worth considering are the ones that change with the kWh used. The "fixed" part is just that. Unless someone will be going off the grid he/she will pay that in any scenario. If the OP pays 6.4 cents per kWh he needs to use that to estimate his savings when consuming less through the heatpump.

 

[Highbeam]

I have seen that recommendation already a few times here but it just does not make sense if you want to calculate how much you can save by reducing your consumption or you would need to pay by adding to it. The only charges worth considering are the ones that change with the kWh used. The "fixed" part is just that. Unless someone will be going off the grid he/she will pay that in any scenario. If the OP pays 6.4 cents per kWh he needs to use that to estimate his savings when consuming less through the heatpump.

Meh, I have half a dozen other "per kwh" costs on my bill other than the "cost of electricity". Taxes for instance are a % of the bill. If you are able to determine which costs are fixed and which are consumption dependent then that certainly sounds ideal.

They are pretty tricky here in that the first 600 kwh are billed at a lower rate so you have a benefit to keep under that 600.

 

[Wolves1]

You can keep the electric furnace install a nest thermostat, but in a wood stove, use the nest to turn the heat from a phone before you come home. You come home to a warm house then start a fire and turn furnace off. Just trying to figure out a way to sell the wife.

 

[billb3]

Hah! My electricity 'cost' is 15¢ per. All those little 'insignificant' incidentals add up to an additional 12.3¢ for a total of 27.3¢/kWh.
Wish we could toss salmon and wildlife under the bridge for cheap hydro power here. Not really. Maybe by 2030 there will be subsidized clean coal and wood pellets will be cheap again.

 

[begreen]

Dustin. Your wife is being practical. Wood heat can come in a few years. What make and model heat pump was the quote for?

 

[Oldman47]

In a mild climate like yours, with overnight lows well above 0ºF, a heat pump can give very nice results. In extreme climates like mine the backup electric strip heaters come on way too often and are very inefficient. A heat pump works by pulling heat from the outside into the house. It just can't do that much at all below zero so you end up running the strip heaters as well.

 

[Dustin]

Dustin. Your wife is being practical. Wood heat can come in a few years. What make and model heat pump was the quote for?

To answer another question, all of my duct work is on heated or cooled spaces. Luckily, nothing runs in the attic or under the house. The duct work is right smack dab between a drop ceiling and the upstairs floor. I imagine this helps...

Begreen, we got quoted for a "Rudd" The reviews online look pretty good. We were also quoted for a "York" which increased our cost by a bit...

 

[begreen]

Ruud is a long-time furnace mfg. but not known for great heatpumps. It's more like a decent value line, like Rheem. That said, it looks like their 2 stage Ultra Series might be worth looking at. Their single stage units are pretty generic. Note that a good unit will cost more initially, but it will likely outperform cheaper units and will be quieter. As a rough heating performance guide look for units with the highest hspf numbers. When comparing quotes make sure you are comparing relatively same design systems. A more efficient 2 speed compressor, variable speed air handler, etc. can boost the price quickly.

 

[JA600L]

My house had an oil boiler and all the lines. Somebody before me pulled the boiler and installed a lux air heat pump.

On a 90+ degree day like yesterday it did absolutely fantastic for air conditioning. However, it isn't worth its weight in scrap metal when it's 10 degrees outside.

This is the primary issue with heat pumps. In heat mode the evaporator is switched to the outside. For an evaporator to do its job it has to extract heat from the outside air. How is it going to do that on a 10 degree day? Not to mention the defrost cycle. The compressor has to shut off or it will freeze the lines. Then it has to reverse, defrost, air condition your house, while turning the auxiliary on.

It works well in air conditioning mode because the condenser is then outside and that needs to extract cooler air. At 140 degrees, it has plenty of cooler air available to it.

Heat pumps are fantastic for mild weather. Just be prepared for the auxiliary to come on when temperatures dip.

This is where the woodstove comes in for me. Having wood heat for the cold days and a heat pump for the mild days is hard to beat.

 

[velvetfoot]

You already have the duct work and are in a mild climate. This'd give you A/C as well. Doesn't sound like you already have a flue. Electricity seems relatively cheap. Seems obvious to me.

 

[Highbeam]

You already have the duct work and are in a mild climate. This'd give you A/C as well. Doesn't sound like you already have a flue. Electricity seems relatively cheap. Seems obvious to me.

Agreed. And the duct work being all interior means you can actually get some very good efficiency.

In our climate, PNW, zillions of folks use a heat pump with resistance coil backup for primary heat. The resistance coils are 100% efficient and the heat pump is always above 100% and up to 300-400% efficient when temps are mild. Your heat system will be automatic, thermostatic, will filter the air, be quiet, almost no maintenance, and will work as long as the power is on. If you're sick, out of wood, away from the house, or just lazy, the heat pump will keep your home warm.

Now to save money, provide a backup, and for pure fun you can add a wood heat source. This will be cheaper to run and every stick of wood you burn is a stick less power that your heat pump will use. You can save a couple bucks a year or you can be awesome and never run your heat pump except for testing it out or for AC in the summer.

Future buyers of your home will pay more to have that heat pump installed. It adds significant value, more than the cost of install. Most folks are not willing to heat with wood.

 

[begreen]

Even if the ductwork is interior it should be sealed and then insulated to get the best performance from the heat pump. Insulation will stop heat loss to the basement and will deliver warmer air from the registers.

 

[Retreadsme]

I agree with begreen about Ruud vs Rheem. One of my units was replaced two years ago with a Goodman which is also a middle of the road mfg, but I got the top of the line heat pump, multi-speed air-handler, etc etc. I find that typical air cooled heat pumps are efficient for heat down to approx. 35 degrees F ambient air. Anything cooler and the efficiency starts to drop and ye ole' heat strips kick on making Forked Deer Electric Coop smile!! Like a few others have said - IMO - with a baby knocking on the door and wife being more comfortable with non-wood primary heat, take the rebate today and have the new system installed ASAP.

Wood heat is nice, but it's still basically a space heater and if you get power for less than 10 cents/kwh - remind me not to invest in your power provider!