Woodstock owners - happy with stove size?

[rickw]

Hello Woodstock owners. The topic of whether these stoves are big enough keeps coming up, so I'd like to conduct a poll of the people who know best. Please respond with 4 pieces of information.

1. your stove model (me - Fireview)
2. how big your house is ( me - 1200 sq ft)
3. insulation (bad, average, good) (me - average)
3. where you are located (me - Massachusetts)
4. how badly do you need a bigger stove (real bad, indifferent, don't need it) - (me - don't need)

After a couple of days I'll summarize and post the results, and of course all the individual posts will be visible. If anyone wants to modify this - by all means.

 

[Wet1]

So you're asking owners of these stoves if their stove is undersized for their application? I would hope people bought the correct size stove for their application...

The complaints I've heard are that people wish WS would offer a larger version for people who might need it (ie: 2500+ sq ft house in cold climate).

 

[rickw]

I was hoping to generate some information on the heating capacity of these stoves based on owner experience; primarily to inform someone considering purchasing one. That way they might not have to buy 2 extra pellet stoves, for instance.

 

[Highbeam]

It will be helpful Rick since as you know the rated SF of WS's largest stove is some smallish figure like 1600SF. Yet folks often heat a larger home with them. Even on their website's front page a customer testimonial touts how well they heat 2400SF. So really, this poll will help firm up the belief that WS underrates their stoves.

 

[Rich L]

My Woodstock Fireview is heating my space much better than my previous P.E. Summit however my home still needs more insulation for me to be completely satisfied.A stove can only do so much when the home is not adequately insulated.Even a larger stove would mean more heat with more heat loss,insulate,insulate,insulate.

 

[bjkjoseph]

ok. i have the fireview,just got it 3 weeks ago.my house is about 1600 sq ft insulation sucks i am working on it.it also has a crawl space which also sucks and i am near the water so it is very windy.i have an insert in the main part of the house.this stove is replacing a vc aspen which every time i loaded it i would have a run away fire.so when buying the stove i got a little carried away,i spent more than i had way more.that being said the stove is great quality very happy with that.but there is no way in hell is this stove is going heat a 2500 sq ft house in a cold climate.it burns a long time,i am getting more sleep but my bed room and kitchen are about 7 degrees cooler than the little piece of crap aspen kept it,the heat is just not hot enough to cause a strong natural heat flow in a large house on a cold day.but the aspen you would have to load every 2 hours this goes 8 easy with not much more wood.and i still have a good coal bed for over 12 hours its a great stove for me but if you have a big drafty house this might not be the best choice.

 

[pinewoodburner]

Hello Woodstock owners. The topic of whether these stoves are big enough keeps coming up, so I'd like to conduct a poll of the people who know best. Please respond with 4 pieces of information.

1. your stove model (me - Fireview)
2. how big your house is ( me - 1200 sq ft)
3. insulation (bad, average, good) (me - average)
3. where you are located (me - Massachusetts)
4. how badly do you need a bigger stove (real bad, indifferent, don't need it) - (me - don't need)

After a couple of days I'll summarize and post the results, and of course all the individual posts will be visible. If anyone wants to modify this - by all means.

1. your stove model - Fireview
2. how big your house (over 3000 sq ft ranch Heating 1800 sq ft with stove)
3. insulation (bad, average, good) (bad)
3. where you are located (Virginia)
4. how badly do you need a bigger stove (indifferent)

Have used about 800 gallons of fuel oil last year heating the 2200 sq ft. Hoping to cut of boiler, but the Fireview will not keep the house when temps are in the low 20's. If I close off the Florida room with its 34' of sliding glass doors, Fireview will do pretty good. Woodstock is a great company, they make a great product. As far as a larger stove, if I can get the old part of the house insulated well, and the climate in Virginia, I think the Fireview could keep the entire house warm except on the coldest nights.

 

[Todd]

Hello Woodstock owners. The topic of whether these stoves are big enough keeps coming up, so I'd like to conduct a poll of the people who know best. Please respond with 4 pieces of information.

1. your stove model (me - Fireview)
2. how big your house is ( me - 1200 sq ft)
3. insulation (bad, average, good) (me - average)
3. where you are located (me - Massachusetts)
4. how badly do you need a bigger stove (real bad, indifferent, don't need it) - (me - don't need)

After a couple of days I'll summarize and post the results, and of course all the individual posts will be visible. If anyone wants to modify this - by all means.

1. Fireview
2. 900 sq ft finished walkout basement where stove is located and 900 sq ft upstairs main level open ranch style.
3. Good insulation
4. NW Wisconsin
5. This stove takes care of the whole house heating needs 90% of the time. The only times it can't keep the upstairs living room area over 70 are during very cold days with strong Easterly winds. My house is exposed to an open lake and when that wind blows it will suck the heat right out. In those cases I have a fireplace that with 1 good firing will bring it up to 80 in an hour. The 900 sq ft basement is always very warm and that is where we all spend most of our time. If W/S made a larger stove I don't really know if it would keep the upper level any warmer without us being too hot downstairs? All woodstoves are space heaters and you will have warm and cool spots, there is no way to even out the heat in all rooms even with a larger stove.

What is the overall consensus as far as comfortable temps, some people get greedy and think they need their whole house 75-80. If the Fireview is keeping a 2400 sq ft house in the upper 60's and the furnace doesn't come on, does that count? 72-75 is what I like and I get that 90% of the time.

I think Woodstock puts out a conservative sq ft heating number because there are so many variables. Other manufactures use the top limits and some people are disappointed when the stove doesn't meet their expectations.

 

[Wet1]

I was hoping to generate some information on the heating capacity of these stoves based on owner experience; primarily to inform someone considering purchasing one. That way they might not have to buy 2 extra pellet stoves, for instance.

Was that cute little pellet stove comment suppose to be a low blow? I only use one of the two pellet stoves I own (the other has been sitting in the basement for years) and neither are truly needed since any of my other heating options will basically cover my needs. We just like the easy, almost maintenance-free burning of pellets when our schedules are busy. Sorry if I might have bruised your ego by suggesting your stove isn't big enough for every one's application, although based on your poll, it appears I was correct.

As I stated, I think WS has a void in their lineup that many potential customers would love to see filled. I really like these stoves, but I too wouldn't buy one of their products unless they offered something larger. Based on the manufactures specs and owner testimonials, the FW doesn't appear like it will put out any more heat than my stove will burning wood (certainly not significantly more). My stove is perfect for my application most of the time, but on the coldest days/nights it sometimes struggles to keep everything at temp (unless someone stays on top of it)... which is when I've found burning coal to be the perfect solution since it burns much hotter and longer. My next wood only stove will have to come close to matching my stoves coal burning performance. The only way I'd consider a WS wood stove would be if they made a larger version... and I wish they did because I really like what I hear about the FW. I suspect the FW could cover my needs if we were around to keep it stoked, but I don't think we are around enough on a consistent basis to do so. Having a larger version of the FV would give a little more heat output if needed, but also allow longer and hotter burns. Hopefully WS will bring a larger version of the FW to the market.

 

[Bobbin]

We have an 18yr old Woodstock Fireview in our "apartment". Our second floor apartment is 1260 sq. ft. in a building that is very well insulated and the floorplan is fairly open. I don't think one stove would be adequate to keep the other 1260 sq.ft. heated to a comfortable level, though I'd be surprised if any plumbing froze. The boiler kicks on only enough to keep the 3 first floor heating zones minimally satisfied and heat the hot water.

We just installed a Woodstock Classic in my studio about a week ago. Again, it's a second floor space in a newly constructed building that'a very well insulated. It heats the 1008 sq.ft. area easily (no walls). I would have considered a smaller stove from their line for that area, but the styles of the smaller woodstoves don't appeal to me.

I agree that woodstoves are basically "space heaters" and it really matters how much heat you consider adequate to keep your home comfortable. Woodstocks are easy to operate and really very efficient when sited carefully for maximum effect.

 

[Bobbin]

Forgot to add that I'm in southern, coastal Maine.

 

[Backwoods Savage]

1. your stove model: Fireview

2. how big your house is: 1000 sq ft

3. insulation: terrible

3. where you are located: In front of a computer. Whoops. Central MI

4. how badly do you need a bigger stove: Do not need.


With the Fireview, we cut our wood consumption almost in half...and stay much warmer. Also, although there is very poor insulation in our home, there is very little variance in temperatures from one room to another.

 

[loracekim]

HI All,

I have a Fireveiw

Currently in unfinished basement
Plan to move upstairs after home remodel.

Old 1200 sq ft farmhouse.

In SE MN Temp have been dropping below 0 F last few nights.

Well I have always wanted to get a WS stove since I was a kid but could never afford one until now. I just got it installed and inspected this past week and fired it up.

I use to have an wood stove in the basement of another old house I had and it was one of the cheap box store brands, but it did a nice job heating to the point that I was worried about nearby objects where overheating. It just needed to be loaded every 6-8 hours. So after hearing about how well the Fireveiw heated I was worried about the heat output and made sure to install it in a safe area of the basement. I even installed a temp activated blower to move hot air upstairs. ( I have a similar one in my shop and it starts up about 30 minutes after lighting the stove and runs until the stove cools down). Well The Fireview barely heats the the cement wall behind it. Even a metal duct 13 inches to the side is only warm to the touch. the fan does not activate unless set to a very low temp. I love the stove, built well, looks great, and really does cut down on smoke. Although even with a great draft the first and only time lighting it took about 5 minutes of propane torch encouragement. My experience in the past on other stoves was always only a few seconds even in subzero temps in unheated buildings, so hopefully in the future it will light better. The stove top thermometer reaches about 400 F, but it just does not seem to be putting out the heat like my other cheaper stoves of the past. My gas furnace is still running ever 20 minutes as usual. I'm hoping it is the lack of insulation in the basement and crawlspace, something I plan to remedy soon, But even a cheap stove in our plywood only walls in a hunting cabin up north puts out enough heat to sometimes require us to open a window to cool it down. It s a nice looking stove and has a long burn time and I never expected it to heat the entire house but I cant even count on it to keep the basement warm by itself.

Mike

 

[jpl1nh]

Using the Keystone to heat about 1200 sq ft please 2 bedrooms off upstairs loft area, open concept, well insulated but lots of windows. There are about 10 days a year where a bigger stove such as the Fireview would be nice since we'll have to run the furnace for a 1/2 hour or so once or twice a day when the windchill or actual temps remain in the 0 or below range. We get no sun till end of Feb since we are at the base of a north face of a wooded hil. But the Keystone does all the rest of the heating. We use less than 50 gals heating oil a season.

 

[Chief Ryan]

1. Fireview
2. 1150
3. Average to good
4. Don't need

I have a ranch style house with high ceilings. The stove is in highest and worst possible spot. But i have no other place, unless i get rid of the china cabinet. At that point i would need a much smaller stove because i would be living in the shed ;-P

I also have different levels of ceilings that trap the hot air. At some point i will post some pics to get some ideas on how to get the cold air to the stove to help move the hot air. If i get a bigger stove i wouldn't be able to sit in the room.

In my case it's not the stove it's the house configuration.

 

[Backwoods Savage]

Well The Fireview barely heats the the cement wall behind it. Even a metal duct 13 inches to the side is only warm to the touch. the fan does not activate unless set to a very low temp.

Although even with a great draft the first and only time lighting it took about 5 minutes of propane torch encouragement. My experience in the past on other stoves was always only a few seconds even in subzero temps in unheated buildings, so hopefully in the future it will light better. The stove top thermometer reaches about 400 F, but it just does not seem to be putting out the heat like my other cheaper stoves of the past. I'm hoping it is the lack of insulation in the basement and crawlspace, something I plan to remedy soon...Mike

Whoa Mike. You have a serious problem there, but I highly doubt it is the stove's fault.

First thing that catches my eye is that cement wall behind the stove. Even if you got things going right, that cement wall will steal most of the heat.

Next, you report great draft, so we should be able to rule out the chimney. But do check that draft again. You can do that by lighting some paper and holding it up near the flue.

Now for the big problem: You are using a propane torch to light your wood and it took 5 minutes to get the wood burning! I sincerely hope you are not blaming the stove for this. That can be nothing more than poor wood. That wood has to be green wood or nearly so but certainly not seasoned. Otherwise it would not take that long to get flame.

Now the stovetop reaching only 400 degrees. For sure that is not much heat output like even a cheap stove. However, again I would blame your wood for this. Hopefully, you have not ruined the cat., but you had best check it.

First, have you checked to see if the cat. is glowing red after engaging it? You do have to wait just a bit for it to start to glow red. If it is glowing, it is working like a charm. But do not always expect it to glow as late in the cycle it will not be glowing, but is still working.

When you check the cat. the first time you will have to remove two shipping bolts. You will not have to reinstall those bolts though so the next time you check the cat., you simply reach in and lift out. Pay attention to how the cat. lays in the stove so you remember how to put it back in.

We use a paint brush for cleaning the cat. as all we've ever got was just a tiny amount of fly ash to brush off. When you put the cat. back in, just be sure it is in the right way. (You can even call Woodstock on their 800 number for help on this.)

If the cat. is cracked, that is a signal that it is going bad. That will also tell you that your wood is not seasoned! It is too wet and the moisture will ruin the cat.

If you are engaging the cat. (or are you even engaging it?) too quickly, then you definitely will have a problem. I'm sure you've read the manual and know that the stovetop should be at 250 or more before engaging the cat. If you have a temperature gauge on the flue, that should reach 500 degrees.

Mike, you definitely can not burn unseasoned wood in this stove unless you plan on burning without engaging the cat, but then you will not get the benefits nor the heat that you will get by running the stove as it was designed to operate. And I'm betting that the wood is the whole problem. Not being able to start a fire in the first place tips one off that this is the big problem.

You can always buy some good dry wood or get a couple of old pallets (careful as some pallets are made using green lumber) to see how the stove burns then.

Last night when I got the stove ready for overnight, the cat. was engaged after 15 minutes. Within just a couple of minutes the cat. was glowing red. Shortly the stove top temperature was just shy of 600 degrees! At this time we had the flame dancing across the top of the glass. That is a pretty sight, but I doubt you have seen this yet at only 400 degrees.

Please keep us posted on this problem. Perhaps it would be best to start a new thread on this problem so others will see it and we can get several brains together to help. You have one of the very best stove on the market. Let's get it working right.

Good luck.

 

[loracekim]

Hi Dennis and all,

Thanks for the quick reply. Sorry I sounded so frustrated but so far it is not living up to my expectations. Here are a few points I may not have made clear. It is a brand new stove, I lit the first fire 3 days ago and have had it going ever since. So hopefully my lighting issue was a new cold stove and cold wood) issue with no coals. I'm using 8-10 year old maple logs 2-4" mostly sugar but some silver maple it has been stored under a dry outside shelter with dirt floor for the last 2 years and now is stored in the basement. I'm also burning some 1" oak pellet boards and some cherry floor board remnants ( my brother installs wood floors and gives me the scraps). This is the same wood I use in my shop and it lights and burns great there, so it is well seasoned.

Draft - It is in the basement in the center of the house and 3 feet of 6" black pipe tied into a very nice newer looking 12"x12" block chimney with a 6" tile liner that runs up through the center of the house. So the perfect setup for draft and so far I have not had any smoke come out of the door and when tested with a match the smoke went right up. The building inspector was very impressed with the setup.

Catalytic Combustor - I did follow and read the directions and have been using wood stove for years (but this is my first Cat stove)so I feel I'm doing every thing right. I checked the cat to see if it was growing the first time I lit it had a slight red color but not glowing. To give an example I reloaded this am (5 hours ago) on a nice bed of coals from last night. before ever opening the door I have religiously opened the draft air control and cat bypass all the way open, Add the wood and close the door until I have good flames then close the air control down about half way 2-3. Then I left for 15 minutes came back and even with good flames ( all logs are flaming) the stove top was still only 200 F. 10 minutes later it was up to 240F so I engaged the cat (this was the lowest temp I have done this but I cant wait 1 hour each time) , closed the airflow to about 1 and left. Just went down to check on it and the logs are now hot red glowing and about half full in the stove, lifted the top and the cat is cold white no glow or red at all and the stove top temp is only 325 F. Based on all this I would guess the Cat is not damaged since it is only 2 days old and had no cracks, etc. in the beginning. Another note this AM before reloading the pipe was cool enough to hold my hand on it (150 F?).

Setup - To make things clear it is in a 8 ft high ceiling basement divided into 3 rooms with a central 8"cinder block wall in the center forming a T to separate the rooms. The stove is next to the large return air duct to my propane furnace (13" to side ) and under the main duct of the furnace with the center block wall behind it (no outside exposure on this wall) So I figured what a great safe setup the ducts and wall act as a fire shield and the wall will hold radiant heat. The room it is in is 13'x13' and does have old stone walls for the remaining walls. None of the walls are insulated and there is an uninsulated crawl space. Based on all this I'm planning on insulating the walls and outside joist areas soon. But even so only 6 ft from the stove is still only about 50 F when it is going strong. I had to lay about 1 ft from it on the floor before I could say it was nice and toasty. Also the floor is newer pour cement and likely not insulated under it.

Again my experience has been even in uninsulated buildings in sub-zero temps I can get a 25'x20' building warmed up to 50-60 F in about 3hours, granted I'm going through twice as much wood but I would expect most of the heat is going up the chimney. So you can see why I'm a little disappointed so far. Like I said I plan to insulate and buy a Laser thermometer ( good excuse to get a toy) to check the stove temp and cat temp. Otherwise any advise would be greatly appreciated. Thanks again for the response.

Mike

 

[Backwoods Savage]

Mike, you absolutely must wait until your stove reaches the right temperature before engaging that cat. Otherwise you will ruin it fast. I suggest removing the cat. instead of just looking at it from the top. btw, you can see the glow if you look up though the glass rather than lifting the top and letting smoke into your basement.

Another big no-no is that flooring. Do not use that in a cat. stove! Again, that will ruin that cat. fast. Other than that, you wood sounds ideal.

That bare cement definitely will rob heat, but your stove isn't getting hot enough to even worry about that right now.

Also, when you loaded the stove, you waited for flame then turned down to 2 or 3. Why?

Here is what I do in the morning with coals. I first push most of the coals to the front (towards the glass) of the stove. Then a hardwood piece is placed in the back and a soft maple in the front. Then more soft maple on top of those two. It depends upon how much heat I need as to how full to fill the stove.

Naturally, the cat. is off and the draft is open full. I leave the draft open full until the flue gets to 500 degrees. (I have 18" of horizontal pipe going into the thimble which goes directly outside into a tee and then up on the outside of the house.) If the pipe gets to 500, I'll then close the draft to 2 until the time is up.

Sometimes if I don't put much wood in it struggles to reach 500 but I always try to get that temperature before engaging the cat.

I then watch the stove top temperature and time. If the stove top is at or above 250 and the time is up, I'll engage the cat. and turn the draft to 1.

That stays on 1 for a very short time before going to .75 or .5. (On full load I'll usually go down to .25, but that is my setup and not everyone can close their draft that much.)

It is amazing watching the flame while you are doing this. When you engage the cat. the flame will usually turn a different color. As you turn the draft down further, the flame will start rising to the top; that is, the flame will be above the wood instead of from under the wood.

From there it takes only a very few minutes to reach 400 and maybe another 10 minutes to 500 or above. If a full load, then the temperature will climb above 500. We've had it to around 650 tops and when that baby is at 600, you have some major great feeling heat.

There was a post from someone who took a picture of the flame in his Fireview. I'm going to search for it and if I find it will post a link. Please watch this short video and see if you are getting anything like this flame.

 

[Backwoods Savage]

Well that was quick and simple. I'm sure this is the right video. I did not load it to watch this time because I have slow dial-up and it takes some time to load. But here is the link:

Fireview video of burn

Please watch this Mike and then let's compare with what you have.

 

[MacPB]

...closed the airflow to about 1 and left. Just went down to check on it and the logs are now hot red glowing and about half full in the stove, lifted the top and the cat is cold white no glow or red at all and the stove top temp is only 325 F...

Mike, I don't think you're supposed to lift the top while the stove is burning.

BTW, I have the Fireview and it takes me a little longer to get the stove engaged from a cold startup too. Someone from Woodstock suggested that I burn the kindling on a setting of 2 (instead of 4) to heat up the box and it seemed to work better after that.

Also, the cat does not need to be glowing to be working. It only glows bright red when the inside temp is 1000 degrees or higher (500 stove top).

 

[Todd]

Mike,
It may take some trial and error figuring out your new stove. Try out different loading techniques and air settings. I like to rake coals forward, put a large split in back and fill in from there. Try not to compact the wood into 1 big single log, some air gaps between the splits will help the burn. Also go outside and take a look at your chimney for smoke after engaging the cat, this is another good indicator whether your cat is working or not.

 

[rickw]

Hi Mike,

One thing I noticed about your post was that the stovetop temp was below 200 when you reloaded. That's pretty low, I'd suggest that reloads work better with a hotter stove. The biggest issue though is getting it hot enough before engaging the cat and also before turning the air lever down. I don't rake coals or stack wood in any special way, I just load in as much as will fit, leave the air control on at no greater than 2 until good flames are present throughout the firebox, and the stovetop temp is 250 or so. Then I flip on the cat - this forces all the hot gases through the cat and if it wasn't quite warm enough heats it up quickly. After 5 minutes or so (depending on how much heat I need, if its cold I'll wait longer) the stovetop temp has clearly increased and then I'll turn down the air to maybe .5 (again depending on how long a burn I'm shooting for).

Generally reloads with a hotter stove are much faster, the drawback is that there are more coals present and after a week of this the stove has coaled up pretty good and you need to burn them off. This can be done by opening up the air to 2-3, raking the coals into a heap, and repeating maybe once or twice over a day. I've been doing it on the weekends when I can fuss with the stove a little more. Usually I leave the cat engaged (except for opening the door) because I think that more heat is recovered by the longer path the hot combustion gases take; the cat itself isn't really doing anything when you're just burning coals (no volatiles left).

Just a thought - maybe your bypass is stuck somehow? With the bypass open (handle with ball end down) you can clearly see flames shoot into the flue, when you shut it to engage the cat (handle with ball end up) you should see a big difference in the path the flames take - they'll go more straight up towards the top of the stove, and also towards the top front.

Regards,
Rick

 

[Todd]

Rick,
Rake those coals forward towards the glass and you won't have that coaling problem. It will also produce a longer burn from front to back.

 

[Risser09]

1. your stove model: Keystone

2. how big your house is: 1600 sq ft

3. insulation: Varies. I have a basement install. No insulation/unfinished in the basement, just 8" block completely underground. The first floor has new windows, and plaster walls. The second floor is very well insulated (added on to the house in the 80s).

4. where you are located: Lancaster, Pennsylvania.

5. how badly do you need a bigger stove: Not really. I initially wanted a fireview, but didn't purchase because it can't be top vented. I already had 2 90º elbows in my setup, and woodstock recommended that I top vent for better draft. I would have preferred the larger firebox, but I am also enjoying the ash pan in the keystone. As far as heat goes....My basement gets up to 85º and my first floor to 74º (room above stove). I move air with my stairwell and 2 floor registers with small fans. I have ceiling fans in the first floor rooms as well. I am only burning cherry, so my BTUs aren't the strength of hickory, oak, osage, locust, etc. If I really let the fire rip and get the stove hot, my cat will stay bright orange for 2 or 3 hours+ after engaging. I feel like I have a great location for my stove. I have a living area in the basement with TV and pool table. The kitchen is right above the stove, and the 1st floor living room is adjacent to the kitchen with an open floor plan. My MAIN living areas are what get most of the heat, and the bedrooms are a little cooler. My goal for this stove was to heat my basement and first floor, which was previously heated by a 60+ year old oil furnace (forced air). I was burning 500 gallons a year just to heat my first floor. Being able to replace that vigorous oil consumption, having the house be 15º hotter than before, and having WARM copper pipes b/c of no ceiling in the basement has made my install ideal. Gotta love turning on cold water for 85º water. ;-)

6. I would never buy from another company. Woodstock definitely earned and deserved every penny they got from me b/c of their product, advice, assistance and great attitude.

 

[WNY PAT]

Woodstock Classic

2000 Square Foot House - well insulated

Western New York

So Far - No Need For A Bigger Stove



When it is cold, I have to crank it quite a bit - running continuously in the 400-600 range and that keeps the house between 70 and 75. Upstairs it's been as cold as 68 - but I have pretty good circulation and transfer with wood beam ceilings (other side of the planks are the floors upstairs) and such. It's supposed to be below zero later this week with some wind, so that'll be a real test. When it is "warmer" - in the 20's and 30's, it'll hit 78 (73 upstairs) pretty easily if I keep cramming it every 5 or 6 hours.

I do love the overnight burn - stoke it up and it's usually 70 to 72 in the morning downstairs and about 250 degrees on the stovetop with coals to just throw the wood on - leave the load door open 15 minutes or so - get the temp back up to about 350 and reengage the cat... close it down.... then off to work.