Just received an email that there is only 1 week left on the Woodstock sale and they also stated the rear clearance at 7" with heat shield. No word on front clearance though.
woodstock progress hybrid epa numbers/clearances
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Sweet! That gives me as much as 20 inches from the front, so I should be good with the size.
Now, I just need to figure out that R-value issue. Hmmm...
Uh-oh again. So, I'm finally home and have the kids asleep. Finally, checked my email (which I can't do at work even though I can post on Hearth.com ;-) ). The email actually states "7 inches to the rear heat shield". This is completely meaningless, as is all the other information that has been given in the last couple months. I couldn't even tell you how deep the stove is based on the website and my conversations with them. Who knows how far the heat shield protrudes from the back of the stove?
EPA testing says it'd the greatest, but no numbers. Clearances haven't been determined, but here are some meaningless numbers for your consideration that are different depending on who you talk to and are subject to change. Check the blog because everything will be there in the next day or two. The blog hasn't changed in almost a month and a half. We'll call and/or email you as soon as we have information. The stove has been delayed due to a delay in testing, but actually the testing has been done for quite some time. However, we decided to not post anything until we retest a number of different ideas because the numbers weren't what we wanted.
I'm sure I will ruffle some feathers, but I don't find this acceptable. I could have easily placed any number of great stoves on my existing heath by now for the same or less money, and am really starting to wonder if this if the right choice. I'm sure the stove will eventually be quite nice. It's the "eventually" part I'm concerned about. Anyone want to talk me down?
EPA testing says it'd the greatest, but no numbers. Clearances haven't been determined, but here are some meaningless numbers for your consideration that are different depending on who you talk to and are subject to change. Check the blog because everything will be there in the next day or two. The blog hasn't changed in almost a month and a half. We'll call and/or email you as soon as we have information. The stove has been delayed due to a delay in testing, but actually the testing has been done for quite some time. However, we decided to not post anything until we retest a number of different ideas because the numbers weren't what we wanted.
I'm sure I will ruffle some feathers, but I don't find this acceptable. I could have easily placed any number of great stoves on my existing heath by now for the same or less money, and am really starting to wonder if this if the right choice. I'm sure the stove will eventually be quite nice. It's the "eventually" part I'm concerned about. Anyone want to talk me down?
Yeah, I'd be frustrated as well if I was in your shoes, but I know Woodstock will make it right and I bet you will be one happy camper if you have the patients to wait it out.
Waulie said:
I agree with everything you say, but you did know there was a very good chance that this was going to happen going into this. Give them a call tomorrow and communicate your frustration in a calm and polite manner. Listen to their answers and take the day to figure out if the answers meet your needs.
If they don't, cancel your order and purchase a stove that will heat your home this weekend.
Otherwise you will grow more and more unhappy with the situation and it will result in looking for faults with every aspect of the stove, which will result in you being unhappy with your purchase due to the experience leading up to getting the stove.
I think you can be appropriately unhappy and hopeful at the same time. The problem (as I see it) is the semi-deliberate mystery about what's happening and whose actions are the delaying ones. And the cascading deadlines for final info (couple of days, imminent . . .), which seem to have been subject to revision based on disappointing results. So you get told things that seem afterwards not to have been totally forthright (or maybe just not well informed). Hopefully it all shrinks to a minor turbulence in retrospect. And even if it turns out (as seems to be the case) that the stove's design testing has actually extended into the sales period, you wouldn't really want WS to do anything else under the circumstances. (Although you might want them to say something different--just a discreet heads-up would have sufficed I think.) No doubt the stove will be nice and well-supported. Five months from now, it's hard to imagine still thinking of this as a big deal. But it's too bad the mystery and shifting around happened during the intro sale, and is further muddling the thoughts of people already taking a leap into the unknown. SO: patience will be rewarded, probably; but there's a weird sort of calculating miscommunication in the meantime to feel strange about. Both seem true right now. I'd say: talking it out to yourself, or on the site, helps, and might help you take the 5-month view, from which things might not seem so dire.
Good advice, guys. Waiting it out will make me happy, to an extent. The question I need to ask is "what extent?". And, more importantly, how the heck do I have any idea at this point what that extent might be?
I'm a little scared that I'm going to have a couple days to decide if I want to haul a 640 lb stove to sit in my garage until I completely rebuild my hearth. Or, maybe I won't. It might be just fine with my existing hearth!
I did know going in that things would probably be delayed, and have even tried to talk some folks down who were excited about the "day or two" comments. But, the total lack of any meaningful information is tough. I think I'm going to set a drop-dead deadline, after which I will get my refund back and move on. Yes, in five months I might regret that. However, it will be a toasty warm five months!
I'm a little scared that I'm going to have a couple days to decide if I want to haul a 640 lb stove to sit in my garage until I completely rebuild my hearth. Or, maybe I won't. It might be just fine with my existing hearth!
I did know going in that things would probably be delayed, and have even tried to talk some folks down who were excited about the "day or two" comments. But, the total lack of any meaningful information is tough. I think I'm going to set a drop-dead deadline, after which I will get my refund back and move on. Yes, in five months I might regret that. However, it will be a toasty warm five months!
Yes, so hard to know when to draw the line. I think the big question lurking out there is: are these delays/redesigns indicative of something extreme enough that you'll wish you'd waited a full year for WS to troubleshoot all the bugs. Presumably WS will make all the early sales good (with retrofits or whatever, if needed), but it still might be annoying to feel like you got a pre-release, beta version stove. Unfortunately, there's no way to tell if the problems rise to anywhere near that level. Seems unlikely I guess (?). But I still think WS's handling of it has allowed these fears to grow bigger than they needed to.
P.S. so maybe I'm recommending the 12-month view!?
P.S. so maybe I'm recommending the 12-month view!?
I'm with you Waulie - frustrating to inconsistent information on data and release info. However do be careful about holding WS folks responsible for information posted second and third hand here on the forums as it may not accurately reflect the message that WS folks intend to put out.
On the other hand, I don't believe that the WS folks have done as good a job of communicating this product release and the delays that have come up as they could have. I realize that they are not all that experienced at major product releases - how often do they release a new stove like this anyway? However, it does seem that the basics of a good PR campaign are not being followed here - they don't have a consistent message (it seems you can get different answers depending on who you happen to get on the phone), and although they have done well to establish a medium to provide rapid updates (the blog and website) they have not been doing much to keep them updated in anything like a timely fashion. The steady statement of "we have all hands busy working to get the new stove out so we don't have time to keep it updated" may be a cute response, but it really doesn't fly in today's day when a blog update only takes about a minute to post.
Sure, none of this really changes the quality of the stove in the end or the facts that will come forward in terms of the final clearance numbers etc. However, I suspect that it is damaging to their "customer focused" reputation. I know it is changing my perception of them a bit. Then again, at least they still answer the phone and talk about it. I can only imagine that if they were a major corporation we wouldn't likely even know what bit we do know and we'd probably be in a blackout wondering if the rumored new stove will ever really come out, or if the announced stove will really be in the dealer showrooms this year etc... It is often much easier to armchair quarterback these things than to be the one driving the product release.
In any case, each of us waiting for the new stove will have to weigh the options and decide on our own what to do. I'm sure WS isn't happy with the delays for many reasons - it certainly is in their financial best interests to get this stove shipping sooner than later. I'm sure that those of us who are upgrading and have a stove in place to use while we wait have it much easier than those who are buying this stove as their first one and looking at other heating methods as it gets colder.
On the other hand, I don't believe that the WS folks have done as good a job of communicating this product release and the delays that have come up as they could have. I realize that they are not all that experienced at major product releases - how often do they release a new stove like this anyway? However, it does seem that the basics of a good PR campaign are not being followed here - they don't have a consistent message (it seems you can get different answers depending on who you happen to get on the phone), and although they have done well to establish a medium to provide rapid updates (the blog and website) they have not been doing much to keep them updated in anything like a timely fashion. The steady statement of "we have all hands busy working to get the new stove out so we don't have time to keep it updated" may be a cute response, but it really doesn't fly in today's day when a blog update only takes about a minute to post.
Sure, none of this really changes the quality of the stove in the end or the facts that will come forward in terms of the final clearance numbers etc. However, I suspect that it is damaging to their "customer focused" reputation. I know it is changing my perception of them a bit. Then again, at least they still answer the phone and talk about it. I can only imagine that if they were a major corporation we wouldn't likely even know what bit we do know and we'd probably be in a blackout wondering if the rumored new stove will ever really come out, or if the announced stove will really be in the dealer showrooms this year etc... It is often much easier to armchair quarterback these things than to be the one driving the product release.
In any case, each of us waiting for the new stove will have to weigh the options and decide on our own what to do. I'm sure WS isn't happy with the delays for many reasons - it certainly is in their financial best interests to get this stove shipping sooner than later. I'm sure that those of us who are upgrading and have a stove in place to use while we wait have it much easier than those who are buying this stove as their first one and looking at other heating methods as it gets colder.
Some may take the slow release as a negative and I can certainly see why as Slow1 explained well.
Another way to consider it is that that they were so damn excited and proud about releasing this product they wanted to share it w/ everyone. Not many China corporations willing to do so.
Regardless, with the discount they are offering on this stove, it's hard to complain if you bought it early even if the test results move things around a bit as they have made that possibility clear.
Another thing to consider is had they not been telling us early about this, how many sales could they have made to people where they had a smaller stove sold but the bigger one would make the people happier. It's a big gamble on their part risking that, I just can't see them doing it w/out them genuinely caring that people get the right sized stove. W/ their good rep, I'm sure they are sitting on pending sales that would have been guaranteed sales because of this delay and them making an early announcement.
If I were selling a stove to someone who was buying from me because of faith in my brand and name, I would be pissed to find out I bought a stove on their rep that was a bit too small for my home when they had a bigger one in the works.
pen
Another way to consider it is that that they were so damn excited and proud about releasing this product they wanted to share it w/ everyone. Not many China corporations willing to do so.
Regardless, with the discount they are offering on this stove, it's hard to complain if you bought it early even if the test results move things around a bit as they have made that possibility clear.
Another thing to consider is had they not been telling us early about this, how many sales could they have made to people where they had a smaller stove sold but the bigger one would make the people happier. It's a big gamble on their part risking that, I just can't see them doing it w/out them genuinely caring that people get the right sized stove. W/ their good rep, I'm sure they are sitting on pending sales that would have been guaranteed sales because of this delay and them making an early announcement.
If I were selling a stove to someone who was buying from me because of faith in my brand and name, I would be pissed to find out I bought a stove on their rep that was a bit too small for my home when they had a bigger one in the works.
pen
I thought the depth was 25". . .Dunno if this is of any help, but the heat shield on the Fireview sits 2-3" off of the back of the stove. I would imagine that they would do it in a similar manner on the Progress.Waulie said:
Den said:
I'm sure that a phone call to WS will get you a clear answer on this point. For things like this there do seem to be clear answers. I was able to get the external dimensions of the shipping crate for example... details that are known they can give.
The website says the depth is 24 and 25 inches. One person I spoke with quite a while back said it was closer to 25. I'm just going to wait for the information to be posted. It looks like the fit on my hearth is going to be very tight, so I'm not going to go off what I'm told on the phone.
I've calmed down a bit this morning (being in the 50*s this morning doesn't hurt). I still don't know why they would send an email with a rear clearance of 7 inches to the rear heat shield, except that a rear clearance of 7 inches sounds good and it might get some folks to look a little closer at the stove. Frankly, it's just not very honest. If they know it is 7 inches to the heat shield, then they know what the actual rear clearance is. Why not include that? With so many folks waiting for these numbers, why not do a quick blog update with the rear clearance?
Yeah, I think the blog said 24". Much later, they put what I assume are the final specs for the dimensions on the web site with 25". . .probably 25". I'll bet that the heat shield doesn't project back any further than the casting for the top vent does, which I would assume is included in the 25". I really think you're looking at 25" + 7". +1 for calling to confirm.
Den said:
Yeah, but you are assuming. Much like many others. At this point there shouldn't be the need for assuming. There should be a page of information easily accessible that gives detailed information. I don't see any info about the heat shield. The heat shield on the intrepid added more than an inch in depth. For all we know it could be 25" + 2-3" for heat shield.
They really need to be more proactive on getting information out and accessible. If they are going to take orders in advance, and are now behind schedule, they need to be more on top of the communication which is clearly an issue right now. They haven't updated their blog in more than a month.
My big headache is now that we are burning almost 24/7, how in the heck am I going to modify my hearth if the Progress clearance requirements work against me? I would have to decommision the FV, rip out the old Hearth, install a new one, and burn OIL in the mean time! This is not a quick job, especially if I do it proper-like. I see no safe way to rebuild the hearth with the old stove running. I am running on HOPE that WS figures out a way to keep the Hearth requirements the same as the FV. I know for a fact they are definitely trying.
I really really don't want to be chiseling out that old hearth, but I really really want the new stove!.
I really really don't want to be chiseling out that old hearth, but I really really want the new stove!.
fire_man said:
My suggestion is that you get Woodstock to confirm hearth and clearance requirements before they ship you the stove (which should happen anyhow). If it requires you to rework your hearth, have them push back the shipment until March (which was an option for those taking advantage of the current promotion) and make the modifications when the climate does not require a heat source.
That way you won't have to burn oil, and the 6 month return policy won't be ticking away on you.
BrowningBAR said:
WOW I never knew it was an option to delay shipment until March. I thought I read somewhere the stove had to ship by December to get the promo-price. I think the 6 Month return policy is a mute point for me, because I probably won't be able to burn it this heating season.
fire_man said:
March was an option on their original submission form and I called woodstock to confirm this as I was trying to determine if I could make it work with my budget. March would allow you to install the stove but still get about a month of shoulder season burning in to give you an idea of how it will work.
fire_man said:
+1 - I really don't wan't to rip out a hearth that I just did 2 years ago to Fireview requirements...
At least I have a second stove that can continue to heat the house if I choose to redo the hearth ;-)
Yes, I made assumptions, and noted them, and suggested calling to confirm. They are very generous with their time on the phone. This may be the best that you are going to get at this time, and you're just going to have to cut them some slack if you want this stove. Sure, things could be better, but this is an unusual situation for them. I could dredge up threads about other manufacturers whose standard procedure is to try to hide their phone #, then tell you to talk to the (possibly clueless)dealer when you call them. . .won't even give you a f'in part #! Threads about really crappy warranty service from some of the "top" mfrs abound. So yeah, Progress is having a difficult birth, but you could buy a stove from another mfr and have a difficult time as a matter of routine.
oh yeah, if you did a March delivery, I'll bet that they would extend the 6-month trial through December, because the want you to have a good chance to burn in the stove to make sure you are happy. I've seen them do this extension with big spring sales. Yes, I'm making more assumptions, call to confirm. 
Den said:oh yeah, if you did a March delivery, I'll bet that they would extend the 6-month trial through December, because the want you to have a good chance to burn in the stove to make sure you are happy. I've seen them do this extension with big spring sales. Yes, I'm making more assumptions, call to confirm.
Wow again. I will confirm what you say, Den. WS never ceases to amaze me with their amazing customer service.
My biggest nightmare is some big stove company buys them out, shuts down the 1-800 #, a $40 cumbustor scoop suddenly jumps to $150, parts go obsolete after 3 years, well you get the picture.
I think I don't have a problem waiting for my Progress :coolsmile:
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