ZC fireplace and a Hearthstone Homestead, I think I've got it now....

[Scott in IN]

Edit, see the 2nd page for further.....

Long story short, I've got a zero clearance double sided metal wood burner in the basement that is inefficient as heck and doesn't burn well (smoking and such). I initially thought I could put an "insert" into it and was looking at the Quadrafire 5100i, buzzzzz that's a different animal and won't work (ZC vs Insert = not the same). The wife says "no" to a free standing wood stove. So now I'm back to the drawing board. My opening is 38" wide and the height is 28.5". Can anyone recommend an EPA, zero clearance wood fireplace that will fit in my preexisting hole? $2.25 a gallon for propane is killing me.

Thanks,

Scott

Inside the chase.

Rear of fireplace

Closeup of the front

Front side into family room

 

[begreen]

Wow, only $2.25? You don't want to know what it's going for here.

Can you give some more info about the basement setup? What is competing for air in the basement? Furnace, dryer, hot water heater? What is the ZC manufacturer and model? If you can post a photo, that might help.

 

[Scott in IN]

The fireplace / hearth separates the basement in half. On one side is the family room and on the other side is the workout room. The double sided fireplace is a Marco 792771A and I guess they are out of business. The firebox on the Marco is 25 1/2" X 12". In the basement is the 90% furnace, water heater and dryer (all propane). I can post some picts tomorrow afternoon.

I looks like the small Quadrafire is rated for a ZC fireplace but it only heats up to 1500 square feet vs the 3500 of the 5100 I was looking at (and which won't fit). I'm not real excited about going with an outside boiler either.

 

[jtp10181]

Do you want to do an insert or tear the thing out and put in an EPA ZC Box. If you do an insert what are you goung to do with the other side of the ST?

 

[TMonter]

The 4100i is rated for ZC fireboxes and it's not a lot smaller than the 5100i. Because the back has a shroud around it it should work in a double sided fireplace. You may want to leave the doors on one side of that.

 

[Scott in IN]

Do you want to do an insert or tear the thing out and put in an EPA ZC Box. If you do an insert what are you goung to do with the other side of the ST?

I'm not real excited about cutting up the brick work. I'd like to do what is easiest and cheapest, whether that be put in new EPA ZC box or put an insert in the existing box. I'm also concerned about getting a decent amount of heat out of it, which is a major concern.

 

[bbc557ci]

Wow, only $2.25? You don't want to know what it's going for here.

Can you give some more info about the basement setup? What is competing for air in the basement? Furnace, dryer, hot water heater? What is the ZC manufacturer and model? If you can post a photo, that might help.

Yep. $2.25 per gal. Heck I'd consider that to be almost a gift where we are.

 

[fishboat]

Scott,

I recently did a fairly exhaustive search on EPA ZC fireplaces/burners (ended up with a Bis) & don't remember running across a dual sided version. Do a search here for ZC fireplaces..you'll find many makes/models to look into. EPA rated ZC fireplaces are not cheap ($3000 & up from what I found), but your propane cost will certainly offset a purchase.

I feel bad for you guys with $2.25 & up propane. Propane here is $1.65, up from $1.62 last year & $1.60 the year before. Still, wood heat(assuming I buy all my wood, I don't) is half what propane costs.

 

[begreen]

Scott, is there a Quadrafire dealer nearby? If yes, take the pictures with you and talk to them about the possibility of putting in a 4100i.

 

[david Lee]

Lennox purchased Marco fireplaces in 1999. The Marco brand is long longer being produced. However, Lennox can provide you with a installation manual. (broken link removed). There is a link in which you can request a manual. The manual will provide you the fireplace's outer dimensions (not the firebox). From there, perhaps you can assess what your up against as far as a complete tear out.

Here's some basic information that I recall about this fireplace:
1. 8" ID air cooled pipe. 12 1/2" OD with 2" clearance requirement.
2. The door opening was 36" x roughly 18". Additionally, there were smoke shelves that protruded below the glass door opening around 4"+/-. Additionally, there was metal ashlip on the hearth which stuck up around 1". This leaves you with a very small opening ht. I recall in only being around 13" tall. - Are there wood insert's that fit into a 13" opening?
3. Roughly 3" below the glass door,there is a 1/2" air gap. This gap is critical in providing cooling air the the fireplace.
4. Outer framing width was round 40" and the depth was around 20" the fireplace was around 36" tall.

 

[SlyFerret]

Man, my last tank full of propane was delivered at $3.24/gal (the last bill was $1200).

I assume you'll probably want to put the new unit facing into the family room. I'm not sure what to suggest to close up the opening behind whatever unit you put in.

Why is your wife against a free standing stove, out of curiosity?

-SF

 

[jtp10181]

I would definatly try to go with an insert like the 4100i and then block off the other side with a thick metal plate. You might have to leave the cooling air vents open so I don't think you could cover those.

 

[Scott in IN]

The wife isn't down with a free standing stove as it doesn't "fit the decor" and would take up too much room.

In remeasuring the the fire box it's 15" high, assuming I take off the ash lip on the bottom and the smoke lip on the top. The box is 25 1/2" wide and there (as one knowledgeable poster posted) a 8" round inside diameter flue pipe.

As far as the weight room side (back side) of the fireplace I was planning on fabricating some sort of metal back plate or if it didn't look too bad just leaving the glass doors in place.

I didn't see ANY quadrafire inserts that are only 15" high which I think is going to be the deal killer.

I'm also about 8" too small for a BIS...

This sucks.....

 

[Scott in IN]

This whole wood stove thing is giving me a headache!

For those that are following the saga here is my initial post with pictures. https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/12918/

Anyhow, I had a couple of dealers out an it seems that there is no way to do an insert or new ZC fireplace into my existing ZC fireplace (unless I want to spend $8,000 to $10,000 for a major reconstruction project, NOT!).

That being said, I've got the wife talked into a wood stove that will be placed in front of the fireplace. We'll extend the tile hearth about 2' and use the existing 8" air cooled chimney with a full 6" reline. The stove will be in the 400 SF family room where we spend most of our time with stairs to the upstairs in the room and the possibility for running a furnace cold air return into the family room to help heat the rest of the house.

The local Vermont Casting dealer recommended the Dutchwest Large Cat for our needs. I quested the Cat recommendation and he said something along the lines of, "I've got both so I'll sell you whatever you want but, I've been selling them for 30 years and I think you'll be way happier with a Cat". This guy has a real nice "fireplace only" store and he's sold a couple of stoves to my friends and they are pretty happy with them. His price was around $2930 for materials and labor. I think I'd be pretty happy with them for support and stuff, so if I've got to spend a little extra for that, I don't have a problem with it.

Before a battle starts, I've been burning up this forum and the net reading about cats vs no cats and I can't get a feeling on them. I've got two friends that have them an one loves them and the other says he would never buy another cat stove? I've also read a couple chimney sweep web pages and they say that cat stoves are a junk, but I've got a dealer saying they are the bomb.

I can also go with a Quadrafire Yosemite for about $2800 from another dealer.

Soooo, I'm looking at cat vs non cat, size and different brands?? AAhhhhhhh?

Thoughts from the group??

Scott

 

[begreen]

Hey Scott, you have my complete sympathy. I'm going to merge this thread with the prior one to save redundant questions. The dealer seems to have an agenda. Maybe he's trying to move inventory? For example, there we're any cat stoves 30 years ago that I am aware of. (Craig will probably come up with one now that I've said that.) Second, there are lots of good things about cat stoves, but they are not for everybody.

Let's start afresh instead of getting into a debate of cat vs non-cat. Now that a freestanding stove is the choice, what are your priorities in order of importance? What is the room size, house size? If a bigger stove, how will the heat get upstairs?

When you say $2800 for the Yosemite, is that installed? Why the downsizing when you originally wanted a 5100?

 

[TMonter]

The cat versus non-cat has been beaten to death but most people would be happy with either.

What kind of features are you looking for and what kind of burn times do you want? Are the aesthetics of watching the fire important?

 

[jtp10181]

FYI most freestanding stoves do not have anything listing in the install manual about installing through a ZC prefab box. I have been told by Quad that you absolutely cannot do this with any of their stoves. We had to tear out a customers Yosemite and replace it with a 2700i because a chimney sweep caught this a year after it was installed.

 

[Scott in IN]

Ok to clarify and answer some of the questions.

The house is a 4400 SF ranch with a walkout basement. The stove will be on the basement floor (not in the hearth) in front of the useless double sided fireplace in the family room. The vent pipe will exit from the rear of the stove, go about 24" into the old fireplace and then straight up into a new 6" liner. The basement is insulated 2x6 with brick exterior and drywall inside. The family room where the stove will be is around 400 sf and I'm guessing that a good bit of the heat will drift up the nearby stairs and to be spread around by the ceiling fans. I've also considered adding a cold air return for the furnace in the ceiling near the stove to pull off some of the heat and disperse it around the house via the furnace blower.

As far as features I really don't know. I just want to make sure that I'm getting the best bang for the buck on the $3K I'm about to spend. I'm mainly concerned with decreasing my dependence on high dollar propane and heating the family room that is cool during the winter (the heat vents are in the ceiling). Right now we are using a electric space heater in the family room which doesn't work so well and also is pretty expensive to run.

As far as burn times, longer would be better (isn't that true for everyone). I'm not expecting the stove to allow me to stop using the furnace, but any savings would be great.

I'm pretty sure that I can't go with a stove much bigger than the DW large as the next size up requires a 8" chimney, which I'm told won't fit in the existing one.

 

[TMonter]

Cat stoves do get slightly longer burn times but you don't see as many flames. They are also a little more difficult to learn how to use but not by much. You just have to make sure everyone in your house knows how to use it.

From the sound of it either stove would be a good choice. What kind of firewood will you be burning?

 

[Scott in IN]

Wood, I've got 18 acres of pine, oak, hickory and maple (and who knows what else) out my back door so I can burn about any thing I want. I'll start by cleaning up the numerous trees that are down, that should take me years.....

 

[webbie]

FYI most freestanding stoves do not have anything listing in the install manual about installing through a ZC prefab box. I have been told by Quad that you absolutely cannot do this with any of their stoves. We had to tear out a customers Yosemite and replace it with a 2700i because a chimney sweep caught this a year after it was installed.

I second or third the motion!

You need to rip out that whole deal unless you want to install a relatively small insert in there......if the insert is approved and the chimney lined, etc.

At that point, you might as well do it right and rip the whole deal out and install a new HT chimney and either a free stander or a built in EPA.

Heck, they lowered the interests rates again.....maybe some cheap money out there!

The possible exception to all these rules is one hearthstone model which may be approved for sitting out front on the hearth.

 

[Scott in IN]

FYI most freestanding stoves do not have anything listing in the install manual about installing through a ZC prefab box. I have been told by Quad that you absolutely cannot do this with any of their stoves. We had to tear out a customers Yosemite and replace it with a 2700i because a chimney sweep caught this a year after it was installed.

I second or third the motion!

You need to rip out that whole deal unless you want to install a relatively small insert in there......if the insert is approved and the chimney lined, etc.

At that point, you might as well do it right and rip the whole deal out and install a new HT chimney and either a free stander or a built in EPA.

Heck, they lowered the interests rates again.....maybe some cheap money out there!

The possible exception to all these rules is one hearthstone model which may be approved for sitting out front on the hearth.

Ok, now I'm confused even further? Are you saying I can't run a pipe out of the back of the free standing stove sitting in front of a ZC fireplace, through the ZC fireplace and up the chimney which would be relined?

Both dealers said it was ok and the one called Quadrafire....

What would be the problem with doing it that way?

 

[Scott in IN]

Well, I've been burning up the internet and this forum (thanks) and it seems that both of my dealers were giving me bad advice. In the Dutchwest manual it specifically says "DO NOT vent into a zero clearance fireplace" and the Quadrafire manuals don't say anything which I take to mean don't do it. It looks like I could have made a costly and dangerous mistake, by listening to the dealers. Then again, I've got a ZC fireplace but there is nothing around / behind it other than brick and cinder block (see the attached pictures of the chase) so I'm really not sure how big of a deal it is?

There does seem to be some light at the end of the tunnel, in looking at the Hearthstone manuals it appears that the Homestead is approved for hearth mounting in front of a ZC fireplace. There's a dealer nearby so I'll be giving him a call.

The next problem is the my 8" ID air cooled chimney, if I do a full reline with 6" stainless does that bring me up to class A or whatever it needs to be?

I truly appreciate the suggestions and advice guys, thanks....

Did I mention that I've got a headache?

 

[jtp10181]

Yes, you wont be able to use just the 8" air cooled chimney. You will need a fully 6" SS liner with a 1/2" insulation wrap. Also the air cooling chamber of the old pipe must remain open at both ends so it can breathe.

 

[Scott in IN]

Thanks to the board, I think I've FINALLY got it figured out now.....

The Hearthstone guy was out today and gave me a quote on the installation in front of my ZC fireplace of a showroom demo Homestead (hearth stove approved for these type of installs, per the manual), a full 6" liner with 1/2" insulated wrap for just over $3100.

Thoughts from the group?