Granite instead of metal for backplate on Englander Insert ??

[tkirk22]

I'd like to use something a little nicer than metal backplates on my insert and I just happen to have some granite plates laying around.

What I'm hoping to do is bolt 3 granite panels to the brick fireplace at the same location where the metal plates would have been. The panels would end about 3/16" from the insert's top and sides.

I'm not a "stone guy" and my main concern is that the granite will not like the heat so close to the the insert. The panels will end at the colder surrounding air chamber but in a worse case scenario the blower fan will fail during a hot fire and I don't have much of an idea of how hot the outer walls of the insert could potentially get (400 degrees ????). Does anyone know if granite can handle those types of temperatures without failing?

The next thing is that if I was to use granite panels I need a way to attach them and make them removable. I'm thinking I could epoxy stainless threaded rod into the brick or mortar and then I need nuts that looks more like small door knobs or big drawer pulls.

Any ideas or advice?

Kirk

 

[BrotherBart]

I think your granite will be fine temp wise. I have a NC-30 half in and half out of my fireplace. At six hundred degrees stove top temp the first row of brick over the lintel has never been observed to be over 230 degrees and that drops off to a hundred and something by the time you get to the third row. On the sides of the fireplace opening the bricks have never been observed to be over 180 degrees. All this is with the brick directly exposed to the radiant heat from the stove with no enclosure around the stove like you have with the insert.

 

[Hogwildz]

You could also use soapstone.

 

[webbie]

I don't think you will have temp problems.....they act like a giant heat sink, so the stone as a whole is unlikely to get much above 200. Whichever way you decide to mount, leave room for expansion...don't set them tight.

 

[stoveguy2esw]

i agree, the surround is not so much designed to protect against heat as it is to close off the rest of the fireplace opening. if you do install a stone surround for gawd's sake posta picture , i'd LOVE to see what it would look like.

 

[Hogwildz]

Mike, could one say use soapstone in place of the rear & side heat shields on a 30 ?

 

[stoveguy2esw]

Mike, could one say use soapstone in place of the rear & side heat shields on a 30 ?

not certain , maybe corie would know , the rear heat shield is welded on so it would have to stay, as for the sides it could be possible remember though that a heat shield on the unit is designed to redirect heat upwards by allowing air to enter an airspace at the bottom of the shield and as it heats up rise out the top carrying the heat it absorbs with it. for the soapstone to mimic this , there would have to be an airspace . this would not allow the soapstone to absorb heat as readily so the radient quality of the soapstone wouldnt reach its full potential. flush mounting the stone would allow this to happen somewhat but then it would be a guess as to how close the unit could be placed to combustibles. so it wouldnt act as a "heat shield" in the true sense of the term. but festooning the unit with soapstone would allow it to hold heat for a longer time (just as andirons were used with old fireplaces to heat up and store heat)

now the bad news, festooning the unit like that could have the effect of trapping too much heat inside the stone coccoon and possibly damage the stove within it. i couldnt tell you if this would happen , but without testing , i cant honestly say it wouldnt.

corie and i discussed once the idea of hanging a cast iron "shell" ventilated and coated that would allow some thermal mass and still both ventilate to allow heat through and look good at the same time. not sure if its somthing we can do but im convinced it would work well and look fantastic.

 

[BrotherBart]

Be careful strapping anything on a stove that holds in too much heat. I still attribute the 1,200 degree overfires on my old stove to the fact that I stuffed that rockwool behind it and on top of it thereby holding in too much heat. That and the increased draft of the new liner was just more than it was ever designed to handle.

Let that 30 shuck heat into the house like it was designed to do. If it had been any wider or taller I would have never installed it in that fireplace because it wouldn't have been able to diffuse the heat fast enough.

 

[tkirk22]

Thanks for the replies. Granite it is. Leaving expansion space is a good idea. I probably would have thought of that immediately after the job was done.

 

[velvetfoot]

As long as you are aware of the path of the combustion air and don't block that off.

 

[stoveguy2esw]

Be careful strapping anything on a stove that holds in too much heat. I still attribute the 1,200 degree overfires on my old stove to the fact that I stuffed that rockwool behind it and on top of it thereby holding in too much heat. That and the increased draft of the new liner was just more than it was ever designed to handle.

Let that 30 shuck heat into the house like it was designed to do. If it had been any wider or taller I would have never installed it in that fireplace because it wouldn't have been able to diffuse the heat fast enough.

thats the intent, seperating the cast jacket (which would have holes all through it (kinda like an ornate grate) with space between , to allow airflow but to still catch and store some of the heat without trapping it inside. would take some work but i think it is doable without jeapordizing the firebox. tis just a thought right now, havent even drawn anything yet, but i think it would look astounding when it was done if it ended up as i visualize it looking

 

[BrotherBart]

corie and i discussed once the idea of hanging a cast iron "shell" ventilated and coated that would allow some thermal mass and still both ventilate to allow heat through and look good at the same time. not sure if its somthing we can do but im convinced it would work well and look fantastic.

I wanna place my order right now. No need to wait for it to go to production. You guys can just drop off the test unit here on it's way back from Warnock.

 

[stoveguy2esw]

guess i'll need to put in the coating color suggestion for the festoons to be done in BB's honey brown


actually , my idea is to have the stove painted the same black color , then "bolt on" the wrap which would be an open look similar to the scrolled look of a casted patio chair (although maybe a different pattern) that way the black on the stove would "shadow" behind the red or blue or green or almond or whatever coating (porcelin or powder coated) on the wrapped shell. i really think it would look smashing

the trick is figuring out how to attach it 9especially if i can find a way to make it retro-able to existing units, maybe bolted together where it would hold itself in place....hmmmmmmmmm...

i'll get back to ya , gotta draw

 

[stoveguy2esw]

http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj307/stoveguy2esw/30ncdrawing.jpg

here is the thought, black is a quick and dirty drawing of a 30 in paint
red is a rough outline of the areas that the festooned castings would cover
gray are possible points for standoffs to open airspaces between the hull and the castings, whole thing literally bolts around the unit like a coccoon
remember the castings will not be solid so air will flow through them and the outlined areas would have some swoopy "french curved" kinda ornate design i dont have solid works on my computer so i cant exactly draw that in , but imagine it there, with a black background behind it. the blower path would be open and allow air out through a gap in the area of the "stepdown"

if a large enough area was left open in the casting it would let heat radiate out easily enough plus the casting would absorb heat and release it as the unit cooled after the fire dies down.

i think its got potential, almost like a "hanging steel firebox" without hanging the firebox so it could literally"bolt on" to existing units.

 

[BrotherBart]

Not bad. Not bad. Plenty of "non-firebox" area to work with down on the side skirts of the 30 for attachment purposes.

And don't forget that you have those pedestal mounting/shipping bracket rails already under it. Pre-drilled.

You do of course realize that the sumbitch would weigh six hundred or so. My first one broke the pallet in shipment. This one would break the trailer floor in the freight truck.

 

[stoveguy2esw]

Not bad. Not bad. Plenty of "non-firebox" area to work with down on the side skirts of the 30 for attachment purposes.

And don't forget that you have those pedestal mounting/shipping bracket rails already under it. Pre-drilled.

You do of course realize that the sumbitch would weigh six hundred or so. My first one broke the pallet in shipment. This one would break the trailer floor in the freight truck.

we've built 600 lb stoves in the past, im sure that the added weight wouldnt be in the 150 lb range , more like 60-70 ish, im sure we could get a pallet to handle it. problem would be with existing customers who might want to add it , would be too heavy for ups to handle. not sure how to handle that yet.... too many deatils for somthing i dont even have approval to explore yet. but bet your boots im gonna ask!

 

[Gooserider]

Not bad. Not bad. Plenty of "non-firebox" area to work with down on the side skirts of the 30 for attachment purposes.

And don't forget that you have those pedestal mounting/shipping bracket rails already under it. Pre-drilled.

You do of course realize that the sumbitch would weigh six hundred or so. My first one broke the pallet in shipment. This one would break the trailer floor in the freight truck.

we've built 600 lb stoves in the past, im sure that the added weight wouldnt be in the 150 lb range , more like 60-70 ish, im sure we could get a pallet to handle it. problem would be with existing customers who might want to add it , would be too heavy for ups to handle. not sure how to handle that yet.... too many deatils for somthing i dont even have approval to explore yet. but bet your boots im gonna ask!

Sounds like a neat idea, probably not terribly different from what PE is doing with the Alderlea series in some ways, but could be very attractive and a unique look. It might also offer a way to reach the customers that don't care for the "plain steel box" look... If you really wanted to get high class you could offer a choice of designs in different "styles" to allow the customer to pick the one that matched their decor the best... The ultimate might even be to make the cover out of plate instead of cast iron, and offer the ability to order a "customer designed" unique pattern cover - cut with a robotic plasma cutter, should be no big deal. The big challenge would be coming up with some sort of design software that would incorporate the proper design constraints...

I would think that the easiest way to handle the UPS problem would be to make the cover in sections - say a top and two sides, fastened together with recessed allen screws... Box each peice seperately and send the aftermarket customers three UPS weight OK packages...

Gooserider

 

[stoveguy2esw]

several challenges to this, mounting the setup would be simple and also not require any change to the stove if done the way i want to try it , it would clamp itself down to the stove

shipping as goose mentioned would be a multibox deal to UPS it.

the design would be retro-fittable to existing units in the field UNLESS THEY HAPPEN TO BE HONEY BROWN (sorry BB had to do that <chuckle>)

as for custom designs , we would be getting this casted not cut from steel i imagine , and also they would probably have to be limited in designs for the purpose

the limiting factor would be that the unit would have to be redone at warnock hersey with the attachment installed (at least im thinking it would)but the unit will have to come up for recert soon anyway so if its done it would be then. if that matters , it may make it impossible to do custom patterns.

we will likely do the 13-nc as well , possibly first dunno yet , boss is letting me explore this so i do get to play with it.

 

[BrotherBart]

the design would be retro-fittable to existing units in the field UNLESS THEY HAPPEN TO BE HONEY BROWN (sorry BB had to do that <chuckle>)

That's OK Mike. Just go ahead and take a dump on the first guy to dress the 30 up and make it rich looking. And the first one here to buy one and stick his neck in the PE lion's den. :coolsmirk:

Hey danielson! Is that month old Summit of yours still for sale?

 

[Hogwildz]

the design would be retro-fittable to existing units in the field UNLESS THEY HAPPEN TO BE HONEY BROWN (sorry BB had to do that <chuckle>)

That's OK Mike. Just go ahead and take a dump on the first guy to dress the 30 up and make it rich looking. And the first one here to buy one and stick his neck in the PE lion's den. :coolsmirk:

Hey danielson! Is that month old Summit of yours still for sale?

HAr har har, even if he did take a dump on your sweet brown burner, you wouldn't notice, cause its already booty brown

 

[stoveguy2esw]

the design would be retro-fittable to existing units in the field UNLESS THEY HAPPEN TO BE HONEY BROWN (sorry BB had to do that <chuckle>)

That's OK Mike. Just go ahead and take a dump on the first guy to dress the 30 up and make it rich looking. And the first one here to buy one and stick his neck in the PE lion's den. :coolsmirk:

Hey danielson! Is that month old Summit of yours still for sale?

aww come on BB , i gotta have a little fun, (handing over a crown and water) peace offering

you know i appreciate ya bro!

 

[Corie]

The answer is NO. We're not doing it. No way, no how.







Down the road everyone, this will probably become a project. I already have my marching orders for the next project after my bay pellet stove.

 

[stoveguy2esw]

the design would be retro-fittable to existing units in the field UNLESS THEY HAPPEN TO BE HONEY BROWN (sorry BB had to do that <chuckle>)

That's OK Mike. Just go ahead and take a dump on the first guy to dress the 30 up and make it rich looking. And the first one here to buy one and stick his neck in the PE lion's den. :coolsmirk:

Hey danielson! Is that month old Summit of yours still for sale?

HAr har har, even if he did take a dump on your sweet brown burner, you wouldn't notice, cause its already booty brown

i dont think a man alive could take a dump on a 30 while burning , talk about "you dont have a hair on your arse!"

besides , i couldnt bash anyone and mean it when they show off my 30 like that. besides if the panels im looking at work out the unit may just make some of the "high end" manufacturers a bit nervous (especially at 1.63 GPH with available bling ) guess i may have to get one special set made that will look good shadowing the BB brown summit slayer

 

[stoveguy2esw]

The answer is NO. We're not doing it. No way, no how.







Down the road everyone, this will probably become a project. I already have my marching orders for the next project after my bay pellet stove.

i know bro, ive already said this is a (when we get to it ) thing. just having a little fun with BB and the gang.

 

[Hogwildz]

Corie, you better pick up the pace. This ain't slacker college no more, this is the big time. Now start producing, or I'm going to feed you those Yuinglings via the sun-don't shine route
And no brown turd is ever going to slay my beast LOL The beast eats turds for breakfast LOL.
Don't make me drag my club down there and give the south its second arse wooping from a Yankee
Seriously though, If you guys do develop a Cast Iron kit, man that would be a first, and revolutionary.
That would open a completely new market and seriously would have the competition scrambling.
Might even have to build a new factory from all the new sales and actually move Corie's lab out of the out house & into a double seater