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Insulating Greenwood, Greenfire, Steaton,

Post in 'The Boiler Room - Wood Boilers and Furnaces' started by Trzebs13, Sep 13, 2010.

  1. ISeeDeadBTUs

    ISeeDeadBTUs Guest

    Does anyone here have AutoCAD or another? I would love to get these units completly spec'd out so we could cost this from the ground up. My guess is that some of the corners that were cut to blacken the bottom line could be 'fixed' and these beasts would be as if not more efficient than any other wood-fired hydronic without storage.

    Great pics you guys BTW!

    Jimbo

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  2. Jroz

    Jroz New Member

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    Jesse did you add the exhaust damper? I was wonder about doing this. I can have mine shut down for 30 minutes and still see heat coming out the chimney, seems like a great idea.

    ps thx for the pics
    Josh
  3. bigburner

    bigburner Feeling the Heat

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    I have a question?? Do you, on this type water tube boiler keep the internal water temp elevated by means of a mix valve to the system supply. It appears that if the water temp was held at 240 F inside the boiler that the whole thing would operate better. updraft gassification is tricky, works well when adjusted correctly. Some of the concerns as far as insulation goes that where mentioned in the posts. I eliminated it our design by building an arch of fire brick, burn chamber completely firebrick, with the down draft exhaust [no fan], the difference is that we ended up recycling a fire tube boiler and mounted it on top for heat exchanger.
  4. Jesse-M

    Jesse-M Member

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    I put the flue damper on with the initial build...thought it would be ideal for the set up. Ended up I didn't like the way the boiler acted with it shutting the flue down on idle. Turns out I use it every day for small adjustments...depending on the wind forecast for the day. One thing I haven't done yet is try setting it to only close 2/3 of the way instead of completely closed. ( probably wont do that either, I'm pretty happy with the way it works manually )


    As for running the boiler at 240*...no way I would do that....I don't like going over 180*.
  5. Trzebs13

    Trzebs13 Member

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    240 F is way to hot. I think the temp blow off is at around 210 F and water boils at 220 F. I really do like the thought of an arch of brick. Any pictures you could share?

    Well I got my steel for the exhaust chamber today and just about got it back together. Crossing my fingers in hopes that it works. On the down side it rained just over 6" here this last week and hauled some wood over to the house and holy man! It must have been coming down sideways cuz my freakin wood is really wet :( Set all my bins of wood out in the open field with covers on them so I hope it stays windy.
  6. bigburner

    bigburner Feeling the Heat

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    240 F is way to hot. I think the temp blow off is at around 210 F and water boils at 220 F. I really do like the thought of an arch of brick. Any pictures you could share

    My point was that if you raised the temp of the HX you could raise the due point temp. This type of boiler does not use a a pressure vessel as a HX "by definition" Water boils at 250 F @ 30 PSI & 281 @ 50 PSI. With a 50 pound blow off 240 F would be easy to maintain. The pipe it's constructed of is rated at 100 PSI + unsure about the manifold, 50 pounds should be easy.

    My boiler is designed to load logs, with a two wheel cart. the fire box is below grade and is about 6 ft tall to help produce the updraft gasification.

    In the smaller units that are being talked about here, the type of pizza that uses fire brick arches, like a" bravo" would be more in line with my thought for this size unit.

    These units "greenwood" are a simplified version of the Russian style heater/boiler that are historically laid up of fire brick, and the insulation is not used. a 3/8 air gap between the firebrick and the cladding brick/block.

    Pictures - do not really have any, I thought about doing a bio with a few pictures, pretty sure that this is a one of a kind, it's the kind of stuff I like to see from others, gets me thinking. Will work on some pictures.
  7. Jesse-M

    Jesse-M Member

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    Sounds like some cool ideas, dumping logs into the fire box would be awesome.....I would like to see a build thread with pics as well
  8. sparke

    sparke Minister of Fire

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    Regarding the top of the unit. I had the idea a long time ago to line the sides and top with refractory. I called Mark and talked to him about it. (This was a few years ago). He said he had already tried it and the issue was the refractory did not hold up, it cracked and fell apart. He said he had the ss needles in the mix of refractory. Seems to me if we line the unit over the hex tubes there will need to be a steel frame to support it. I am considering building a frame and lining the sides and top above hex with fire brick. Do you guys think this would make enough of a difference in performance to bother with? I am curious more then anything. My unit runs clean, my goals would be to decrease wood consumption, I would think the HEX would perform better with some type of refractory above it? Not sure if I have the ambition this year...
  9. snowman49820

    snowman49820 Member

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    I used refractory board to line the inside of my boiler. It works great, doesn't sag or collect creosote.
    Bought my refractory and board from GM Refractories in Brighton, MI http://gmrefractories.com/index.htm
  10. Jesse-M

    Jesse-M Member

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    snowman have you posted any pictures of your build?
  11. sparke

    sparke Minister of Fire

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    Snowman, when you say it works good - do you mean the performance of your boiler changed? Is board durable enough to handle the wire brush when you clean the hex?
  12. snowman49820

    snowman49820 Member

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    Jesse, I will get some pictures posted soon. Putting a small Belimo in the front to help with the huffing. Taking it up to the shop to make the changes this week.
    Sparke, I built my boiler. You can damage the the board but it's not easy to hook with a brush. Kaowool snags much easier. The only place a little creosote builds
    up is on the exchangers. I scrape them with a small hook, then hit them with a shingle torch. Good as new. I slightly angled my exhaust away from the stove, in case
    there is condensation. Put a small drain hole in the tee and a one gallon bucket of scented cat litter.
    Jimbo, I did make Mastercam drawings before I built mine.
  13. Jesse-M

    Jesse-M Member

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    Puttin a belimo in front is a good idea, I can see that taking care of the huffing...completely. Would enjoy seeing build pics as to compare with my own. I have a blueprint of my boiler as well...but did it the old fashion way...on a drafting table. Do you have a total cost number ?
  14. 2.beans

    2.beans Minister of Fire

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    i think i remember you saying that your boiler huffs? while you have it apart add some more draft tubes and bet that will help out alot. just my two cents. nice boiler by the way.
  15. 2.beans

    2.beans Minister of Fire

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    i added one to mine a few years ago and it helps the boiler cool down considerably, but if you dont add a gasket to the front door it will smoke like hell out around the door. i ended up cutting the door hinges off and making the door accept a gasket.

    Attached Files:

  16. Jesse-M

    Jesse-M Member

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    Ya know the funny thing is I did just the opposite ....I closed off two of the intake tubes and all but eliminated the huffing problem....can't really explain it, just makes for the right AFR I guess

    beans, I recall you being involved in a couple of builds...any build pics of your experiences?
  17. 2.beans

    2.beans Minister of Fire

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    i have pictures of one one but havent posted anything but i will. been busy. the one i have pics of huffs like crazy unlike mine so were going to play with chimney height to try to fix it. i do agree that its a air/fuel thing, but i dont know why the two bought ones ive helped install dont and the homemade does. its very simple principle no magic.
  18. sparke

    sparke Minister of Fire

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    I finally got motivated to make some of the changes I have been wanting to experiment with. I am going to put refractory all the way up the sides and above the hex. I bought the refractory and will post pics when I am done. I have ss needles to put in the mix but does anyone know what type of material I can put in the top piece (over the hex). It is going to be 28" x 25" x 1.5" thick. I would like it to be thicker but need to save room for 3" of insulation. I am thinking ss mesh... I think there needs to be more support for the top piece so gravity and heat wont destroy it. Anyone have any ideas? Think ss mesh will be adequte?
  19. bigburner

    bigburner Feeling the Heat

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    you could try SS mesh but don't be surprised if it fails, the expansion between the castalble and mesh may be a problem, in overhead kilns and such the fire brick is hung on wire clips and just hang from it. Me I would pour it in an arch with some wire in the middle build a metal rack above the whole top add as much insulation as I needed and then cover with sheet metal.
  20. Jesse-M

    Jesse-M Member

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    What is your thought process on the overhead refractory......... more heat to the pressure vessel?.........less heat to the top skin?........More efficient burn cycles?.......protection for the insulation?
  21. ISeeDeadBTUs

    ISeeDeadBTUs Guest

    Though it won't happen this year, I too would like refractory above the HX. I am thinking it would retain the heat much better than the rockwool.

    My thought would be to use blocks which set into boiler plate that runs across the top of the HX. Make the refractory in like 6-8" strips, allowing for movement.
  22. ISeeDeadBTUs

    ISeeDeadBTUs Guest

    Posting a pic of Deere's Side . . .




    This one is of my side. This is the pattern for how I will cut the new sheet. The bottom hole is for cleaning out the ash.

  23. Trzebs13

    Trzebs13 Member

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    I defiantly like the idea of some kink of refractory above the Hx but I would not think that any kind of metal in the casting would be a good idea. Metal is going to expand at a much larger rate than the Brick mix. So as it heats and cools it will start with tiny cracks around the metal and then probably just crack up totally. I think I would try to put as much of a curve on the corners that would fit. And maybe even pour some holes in the top of it and put some kind of hangers to help support it. But would defiantly try to engineer as much strenghth in the design / shape. I think what this would do, is reflect more of the heat down on the Hx. The top skin would probably be much cooler and would force the excess heat that doesn't get transferred up the chimney. Which would probably help some of the problems we have.
  24. muleman51

    muleman51 Member

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    Great pictures, but how are you going to insulate those holes and seal them so they don't smoke you out. Good Luck
  25. ISeeDeadBTUs

    ISeeDeadBTUs Guest

    LOL< can always count on the mule to see the negative side . . . I can't speak for Deere, but my plan is to attach the insulation to the access panels which will go over the holes.

    As far as the refractory hanging system . . . I envision grooves cast into individual pieces of refractory, with the groove setting into a corresponding ridge in the boiler plate. I'm thinking that would alow for movement back and forth.

    Jimbo

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