Keystone Observations

[leeave96]

I've finished my seasoning/smell-up the house burns on with my Woodstock Keystone and am now in normal burn mode and have some observations and questions.

Firstly, I've got good seasoned dry wood, mostly oak and locust with some other stuff mixed-in. Also, I'm (and have been while waiting on installing my stove) reading volumes of archive posts.

Presently, I have about a 3/4 firebox full load of wood that I'm burning and between an earlier fire this afternoon, I am finding the following:

Observations:

1. The stove is pretty sensitive to the damper setting. A slight movement results in a definate change in the fire box.

2. Side load ain't to bad. I grew-up on top loading stoves (with the exception of an old front loading Englander smoke dragon) and aside from getting on my knees to load/start the stove, I don't think a thimble of smoke has excaped when the door is opened - totally different from the top loaders from my past.

3. When I drop the damper to 1, so far, I loose the redness in the coals on the bottom of the stove and about the bottom of the splits. The cat also appears to go out - even when the stove top is about 300ish - but I'm still playing with this.

4. This is something I expected from reading about the Keystone (and other cat stoves), though there is a big window, once the bypass is closed and the cat is engaged and the damper is turned down, the light show completely goes away - except for an occasional flash of secondaries. So far, the big glass is more useful for monitoring the burn and cat than a light show.

Questons:

1. When you are crusing at 500-600 stove top degrees, what is your damper setting? What about other stove top temps vs damper settings?

2. Hearth pad is toasty even with the factory heat sheild. I gather no surprises here.

3. When you are down to 1 on the damper and loaded-up for the night, what is your stove top temp?

I'm a bit fixed on damper vs stove top temps just validate my findings.

It has taken me about a half hour to write this post as I my attention is drawn to other stuff going on in the house, but I just checked the stove and I've got the damper down to 1.5, hardly an ember glowing in the firebox, the stove top temp is holding at 425 degrees and the cat is glowing nicely orange.

Thanks everyone,
Bill

 

[Todd]

I'm still playing with mine and have found the same as you that if I turn it down below #1 everything goes black in the fire box and the flames go out. Lately I've been engaging at 1.5 and leave it there for 15-30 minutes then turn it down to a smidge over #1 for a low burn. This keeps some darker red coals and a lazy flame going. This is a bit higher air settings than my Fireview but it's a different stove and different setup. I don't like the dark fire box, I like to keep a little red and flame in there. Woodstock says the most efficient burn is to turn it down til the flames slow down and start to lift off the splits, so that's what I try to achieve. It will still burn in the black but sometimes the cat may get overload and run up over 700.

Stove top temps don't always tell the whole story. You can have a smouldering smokey fire going and get high 700 temp because the cat is chowing down right under your thermometer and the rest of the stove is relatively cooler. If you have a good flame with red hot coals the stove top could only be 550 but the whole mass of the stove is up there as well which will give you more heat.

Another tool you may want to try is a pipe thermometer. They work good for the bypass mode so you don't throw too much heat up the pipe and keep it in the stove. It will also help you engage a little quicker on cold starts since the stone has some lag time.

 

[Todd]

Another thing you will find is, as outside temps get colder your air settings will go down more because draft will increase. Same thing with wind.

Keep playing, it may take a little trial and error to find that sweet spot.

I wish it would get colder out so I could burn my Keystone more often. With these weather conditions all I need is one evening fire in the Fireview to keep the whole house comfy. The Keystone prolly won't be needed full time til late Nov or Dec.

 

[leeave96]

I was thinking the same thing too - get a little colder and the draft would improve and the damper setting would go down. Right now, 1.25 to 1.75 seems to be the majic number to keep a tiny bit of flame wicking the bottom of the splits and red coals in the bottom.

Earlier this evening I cranked the stove up - but not maxed out. Stove top temp went to about 560 degrees. In my neck of the woods, it's not to cold tonight outside, but inside, it was holding 80 degrees and the rooms off of the living room were about 70-72 degrees and this is a very drafty, hardly insulated house. I've backed the stove down to about 350 degrees to get a more reasonable room temp. I imagine when it gets really cold, a steady stove top temp of 600 will keep the place feeling like south florida!

Thanks,
Bill

 

[weatherguy]

This is my first stove so maybe its takes getting used to by experienced burners but a lot of times my stove almost looks like one of those electric fireplaces, I can see just a little red glowing but its pretty dark in the box, but it is throwing some serious heat so thats a good thing.
From what I gather the cat is still working even if its not glowing, mine always glows at the beginning but not always once its into the burn for a while. Ive checked outside when its not lit and theres no smoke so its working.

What kinf of thermometers do you guys have with the Woodsocks?

 

[Todd]

This is my first stove so maybe its takes getting used to by experienced burners but a lot of times my stove almost looks like one of those electric fireplaces, I can see just a little red glowing but its pretty dark in the box, but it is throwing some serious heat so thats a good thing.
From what I gather the cat is still working even if its not glowing, mine always glows at the beginning but not always once its into the burn for a while. Ive checked outside when its not lit and theres no smoke so its working.

What kinf of thermometers do you guys have with the Woodsocks?

Yeah, you will still get good heat with a smouldering fire like that but I would rather have a little flame in there. Usually my cat will glow when first engaged and as the fuel is used up the glow will go away. No smoke is a sure sign the cat is working.

Woodstock includes a surface thermometer with all their stoves but they also have a probe that can be installed in the back of the stove. Kind a silly having it in back, it's hard to read unless you want to hang a mirror behind the stove. Someone drilled a hole through the top stone in his Keystone last year and installed a Condar cat probe, I forgot who that was, I'm too chicken to do that.

 

[leeave96]

I thought I'd keep this thread going as I continue to use and learn my Woodstock Keystone and I'll continue to update it going forward too.

Pretty much I've been burning it 24/7 since my end of October install and have found this a most intersting experience. In some ways it is much different than the old smoke dragons of my past and in other ways very similar.

Today, I've got about 3 medium size splits of oak in the firebox and am getting very nice flames and a glowing cat too. Normally it's one or the other, but today, both are present. Damper setting is just under 2 and the stove top is crusing at about 500-525 degrees and climbing a bit. I'll back it down to 1.5 to 1.25 in a bit as the room temp starts pushing towards 80 degrees

Over dampered the stove last night - still playing around with different wood and settings and though there were pretty much ashes this morning, the glass was heavily blackened to the sides of the andirons. After burning hot this morning/afternoon, most of the black is gone - I think due to a hot fire and more air/air velocity across the glass with the damper setting near 2. BTW, the reason I had ashes this morning in spite of dampering down was that I cleaned out the ashes in the stove and ash pan. With no ashes in the bottom of the firebox, the left over coals from an 8ish hr burn are minimal - with a 1-ish inch ash bed, I've got a lot of hot coals after an overnight burn.

Even with the busy burn, the chimney shows zero smoke - pretty amazing.

Just courious - how are you getting along with your Keystone? Is your glass staying clean, what are your damper settings and stove top temps? Any and all Keystone (and Palladian) observations would be most welcome.

Thanks!
Bill

ps: I edited this post for the above info on 11-21.

 

[leeave96]

One thing I forgot to mention in my earlier post is with regards to the amount of soapstone vs cast iron on the Keystone. While there is a block of soapstone on the front bottom, the front is mostly glass with cast iron surrounding the top and sides of the glass. This is kind of nice from a quick start in a cold house standpoint in that the glass and cast iron quickly radiate the heat while the rest of the soapstone is getting up to temp - sort of a hybird between cast and soapstone. Not sure how the Fireview compares in this regard. My opinion is this is a plus.

Thanks,
Bill

 

[Todd]

I over did it yesterday, had both stoves going and had to open windows since it was getting close to 90 degrees upstairs. The Fireview has been going 24/7 for awhile now and I like to fire up the Keystone to help out in the morning or evening if needed. It was in the teens outside in the morning so I was thinking a little Keystone boost was in order so I built a small fire and evened out the heat throughout the house to about 75, just right. My mistake was later on in the day I reloaded both stoves up full and should of just let the Keystone go out. I ended up cutting the air back on the Keystone to about .75 and a good flamless smoulder but still was too hot in the house.

So far I've noticed the Keystone likes to burn with a little more air than the Fireview. Usually a tad over #1 gives me that floating lazy flame and once I go under #1 she snuffs out into a smoulder but after about an hour or so it may or may not erupt into flames. I still get some soot on the right side glass but it's not that bad and usually goes away after a couple hours into the burn when the stove heats up to about 500. It seems like my stove burns more on the left side than the right and most of the left over coals are closer to the door than the other side.

I tried something a little different yesterday and plugged that 1/4" EPA hole in the back of the ash pan to see if that would give me some longer lasting coals. I ended up with a 10 hour burn with 4 good size Black Locust splits and the air turned down to .75. I asked Woodstock about that hole back there because it seemed strange to have an air feed up through the ash pan, you would think it would burn up the coals a little faster. Woodstock said it just there to help with complete combustion and doesn't have anything to do with EPA standards. I don't think that hole effects anything if you have a good ash bed in there but when it's clean I think that extra air cuts your burn times down some.

 

[leeave96]

Todd,

I'm glad you pointed out the hole in the ash pan - I might experiment with closing it too. I do know that when the ash pan is empty and the ashes are cleared out of the firebox, there are not to many hot coals left after an overnight burn. The lack of ashes would give the extra air a clear path to the bottom of the firebox. It may also increase the air volume/velocity coming across the front glass which should help keep the glass cleaner.

Thanks!
Bill

 

[kayakkeith]

Wheres this hole in the ash pan?? My stove is to hot right now to mess around with but I can check later. My Keystone has been running like most of you guys are talking about. The only thing is I rarely get it up to 500 but more like 400. Actually take that back its 450 now with a pipe temp of 200.
It was around 55 here today but since we are in the twenties at night we run the stove - in the day today we would put in two small splits in and then engage cat at let it sail for a couple hours. It just kept the dampness and chill out of house. Now its about 45 outside and the living room is at 75 and the upstairs at about 72 or so.
The main thing is we dont run our gas heater at all and saving some big cash

 

[Todd]

Keith,
The hole is in the back of the stove dead center of the ash pan housing. I stuck a screw in mine and will try it out for awhile and see what happens.

Also to get this stove up over 500 you need a full load, get it going good, engage the cat with some good flame and red in the coals (I engage at 1.5) for 15-30 minutes before turning it down. A good dry load of hardwood should give you stove top temps holding over 500 for 2-3 hours before slowly coming down.

 

[Todd]

After a few burns with a screw in that ash pan hole I noticed it does make a difference. The splits in the back of the fire box don't burn up as fast and coals last longer. I think I will just leave it that way, seems to burn just as clean as before.

 

[leeave96]

My #1 gripe with the Keystone is the glass gets browned-up on either sides of the andirons. I spoke to Woodstock and they said this was to be expected - that to keep the glass clean, you need to burn a hot fire. This pretty much agrees with my experience with this stove so far.

My Wife cleaned the glass yesterday and it didn't take long to soot-up the glass in the evening burn and after banking the stove for overnight, when I got up this morning, the glass was browned-up pretty good on either side of the andirons and some above the top center of the glass - and I'm thinking crap! It's bad enough when I crawl into the stove to clean the glass, but when my Wife does it and in less than 24 hrs, it gets darkened-up - it's war

Sooooo, in as much as I got the day off, it's cold and rainy in my neck of the woods - it's time to try burning a HOT fire to deal with the glass. So today, I've been burning at #2 damper setting, lots of flame, cat glowing nicely and the brown on the glass is retreating - mostly on the left side. All brown between the andirons from top to bottom is gone.

Just make us feel good about our stove while burning hot with a generous damper setting, I go outside and look at our chimney and ZERO smoke - amazing! Look to the neighbor's chimney and a nice steady stream of grey/white smoke.

Bill

 

[Todd]

Bill,
Have you checked the gap between the air wash plate and glass yet? Should be able to fit a 1/4" drill bit between. I opened my gap up a smidgen over 1/4" and along with colder weather the glass clears up nicely after about an hour into the burn.

 

[leeave96]

Bill,
Have you checked the gap between the air wash plate and glass yet? Should be able to fit a 1/4" drill bit between. I opened my gap up a smidgen over 1/4" and along with colder weather the glass clears up nicely after about an hour into the burn.

Todd,

Thanks! That's the next step - to check the gap. I may give that a try tomorrow after the stove burns out and cools down.

Bill

 

[Todd]

Bill,
Have you checked the gap between the air wash plate and glass yet? Should be able to fit a 1/4" drill bit between. I opened my gap up a smidgen over 1/4" and along with colder weather the glass clears up nicely after about an hour into the burn.

Todd,

Thanks! That's the next step - to check the gap. I may give that a try tomorrow after the stove burns out and cools down.

Bill

Also try loading your stove like I did in that new thread I just posted. It will give you a hotter less smoky start up.

 

[leeave96]

Todd,

I am starting to think part of my problem may be chimney draft. I've got good draft in that when you start the fire and open the door, smoke doesn't spill out and I've never had a back puffing problem. On the other hand, when I put a match in the firebox, it doesn't get snuffed out by the draft either - which I have seen on other chimneys. I feel that draft boils down to the amount of air that a stove can pull from the room, through the stove and up the chimney - nothing else. If my air velocity and volume is OK, but not great, then it would make sense that I would see lower stove top temps when I am at 1 to 1.5 damper settings as the wood is simply not getting enough air for hotter burns. I also think this would also be reflected in lower stove pipe temperatures as the stove just doesn't get as hot as it would if there were more air moving through the stove for the wood to burn. Further, I think that if my draft were better, I'd get more air volume and velocity across my front glass - helping to keep it clean.

So - in addition to checking the air gap on the air wash plate relative to the glass, I may have to simply live with opening the damper until I see more "normal" stove top and flue temperatures that you and other woodstock owners are seeing.

I may also, when I get to it, have the chimney sweep give me a quote for a smaller chimney liner than what I have now - which is 8x8 with an ID of 6-5/8. I think you have a 5.5 inch liner and I have read other have this ID too and get great drafts. My thimble to top of chimney is about 16 ft so I don't exactly have the tallest chimney around.

That's my theory for today

Thanks,
Bill

 

[Todd]

Ok, I think your on to something there, I forgot you had a 8x8 clay tile chimney. It will take a little longer to warm up and also cool off quicker with low slow burns. I have heard of other Woodstock owners with chimney similar to yours and they also had to burn with a little more air than us 5.5 or 6" liner guys. It makes sense.

I have a 5.5 for my Fireview and an insulated 6" liner for my Keystone.

 

[leeave96]

Bill,
Have you checked the gap between the air wash plate and glass yet? Should be able to fit a 1/4" drill bit between. I opened my gap up a smidgen over 1/4" and along with colder weather the glass clears up nicely after about an hour into the burn.

Todd,

I let the stove burn out tonight and after it cooled, I checked the gap between the air wash plate and the glass. The plate on the left side was a bit under 1/4 inch and on the right side, it was over 1/4 inch. I set both sides to 1/4 inch and while I was in there, I checked the cat to make sure it wasn't dirty or pluged with any fly ash - all good.

I also plugged the hole in the ash pan housing and I used a bit of black stove pipe cement - something I could easily knock out if I want to do so later. My goal in plugging this hole is to force all of the intake air over the glass to help with keeping it clean.

I've got a fire started now and we'll see.

Thanks,
Bill

 

[kayakkeith]

I had some issues at first with the glass getting dirty but that was my first week of burning back in Sept. It got real dirty but after I used it a while with some hot fires no problem since. It may get dirty here and there from some smoldering or whatever but it burns off quickly.

I dont know enough about the chimney dimensions and such to comment on that but I have been burning my new Keystone now for a couple months and seem to have it dialed in. What helped me was getting another thermometer for the flue pipe
Right now its a little under 200 on the pipe and 450 on stove top thermometer.
Toasty in the house and its 25 degrees outside

 

[Todd]

Bill,
Have you checked the gap between the air wash plate and glass yet? Should be able to fit a 1/4" drill bit between. I opened my gap up a smidgen over 1/4" and along with colder weather the glass clears up nicely after about an hour into the burn.

Todd,

I let the stove burn out tonight and after it cooled, I checked the gap between the air wash plate and the glass. The plate on the left side was a bit under 1/4 inch and on the right side, it was over 1/4 inch. I set both sides to 1/4 inch and while I was in there, I checked the cat to make sure it wasn't dirty or pluged with any fly ash - all good.

I also plugged the hole in the ash pan housing and I used a bit of black stove pipe cement - something I could easily knock out if I want to do so later. My goal in plugging this hole is to force all of the intake air over the glass to help with keeping it clean.

I've got a fire started now and we'll see.

Thanks,
Bill

Your air wash plate was just the opposite of mine. Mine was off on the right side and that's the side I was having dirty glass. Hope the adjustment works for you, it seemed to work for me.

 

[Todd]

I had some issues at first with the glass getting dirty but that was my first week of burning back in Sept. It got real dirty but after I used it a while with some hot fires no problem since. It may get dirty here and there from some smoldering or whatever but it burns off quickly.

I dont know enough about the chimney dimensions and such to comment on that but I have been burning my new Keystone now for a couple months and seem to have it dialed in. What helped me was getting another thermometer for the flue pipe
Right now its a little under 200 on the pipe and 450 on stove top thermometer.
Toasty in the house and its 25 degrees outside

Sounds good Keith. The pipe thermometer is a good tool, I find I watch that more than the stove top and it allows you to cheat engaging the cat sooner and not have to wait for the stove top to catch up.

 

[leeave96]

Update - I pluged the hole in the ash pan housing and am getting better overall control of my burn. The burn is definately more front to back. The first overnight burn, with empty ash pan and stove empied of ashes gave me a nice overnight burn with enough embers left over to re-kindle the fire this morning. This has been normal, but only when I had a a bed of ashes - not with an stove empty of ashes.

In addition to the above, re-adjusting the air wash plate, I am also opening the damper-up more to give me hotter stack and stove top temperatures and my glass is staying cleaner - for now.

Clean glass or not, this stove can really crank out the heat when you open it up a bit.

Bill

 

[Todd]

Sounds good Bill. I found the same results when I plugged my ash pan hole and I'm leaving it that way.