PE Super Insert. Opinions/Info?

[begreen]

Looking at the catalog, is this the adapter you are looking at?

As an alternative, if you have a good supplier maybe try the Durablack stove adapter (crimped on male end and snap lock on female end) to see how it connects with the male end of the round Duraliner?

edit, we cross posted. I saw the angled adapters too.

 

[Squisher]

That's the part the oval one.

Again though. Round to round doesn't work for me as by the time I convert to oval I've pushed the uninsulated flex up into the clay liners. I'm not saying it won't work. But by my measurements I need to go round to oval off the stove and then connect directly to the 3' oval flex. To keep ZC insulated pipe down past the last clay tile. That part you showed, the oval one is their part for doing this I think. But without being able to clearly see it I'm not confident just ordering it up and having it shipped.

 

[Squisher]

I really appreciate this input. I've now got a long weekend to explore options though. I'm heading out to do my last chimney cleaning of the week shortly and then will check in later.

Again I really appreciate the help and brainstorming on this. I hope I'm not coming across as too thickheaded or stubborn. I'm not trying to be difficult, and if I could clearly see that flat round to oval adapter I might feel comfortable with it. I was in the process of ordering it when my supplier basically told me not to.

 

[Hogwildz]

I'm uncertain of the fit. But if I use the round to oval 14" flex adaptor that will push the 3' flex section up into the clay liners. I can't fit the 3' flex down the chimney with insulation on it. So the whole install then no longer meets ZC. Also from what I can see of the sheet metal surround that encases my PE insert there is no room for any female overlap(if that makes sense). It is meant to only have a male end inserted into the flue collar. I believe this to be so because the sheet metal fits very closely around the flue outlet and on the backside it actually has a tab connecting the sheet metal to the outside of the flue collar.

Here you can see that tab, and obviously the front half of the sheet metal is off.

View attachment 187671

I cut the tab off, all it does is give a place to screw the center of the casing to. I have no issues with the casing, with the tab cut off, and makes for no need to notch the liner. I still say your best bet is to run the flex right down onto the outlet. That way, you have the flex resting over both the inside & outside of the flew collar, and you aren't sacrificing gained height on the flex, alleviating the height problem of the flex running into the flue tile. You can then insulate the flex up to the tile.
My concern is I don't think the 6" rigid or flex will fit in a 6" clay flue. What are the outer dimensions of the 6" oval rigid?

You def want to be safe, but don't drive yourself nuts overthinking it. Remember, all install situations are different. Manufacturers can't foresee every difference in every install. Therefore they figure for the most common situations. Modifications or customization sometimes are a must, and do occur many times. Again, be smart, and safe. Obey clearances, but as far as running the flex to the outlet without an adapter, you should be fine with the liner to the outlet because it covers inside & out, and you can fasten with some screws for a secure install.

I also did have to trim a minimal amount of the casing away from the outlet. It was not perfectly centered, and I trimmed it to allow the liner to meet the outlet, in my case the liner to adapter ring, to outlet.

 

[Hogwildz]

I will if their tech support contacts me and e-mails me the photos. A customer rep, forwarded my questions about the oval to round flat appliance adapter onto their 'tech' department yesterday but so far nothing from them yet.

Also as I understand it technically I can't modify the insert in any way, lest the cert be voided. So I shouldn't be cutting the sheet metal surround of the insert, even though I'm sure the reality of that is it won't adversely affect anything. But drilling and tapping or using self tapping screws into the top of the insert itself? That seems questionable to me, and that's right from duraliners install instructions. My supplier had mentioned to me that what if I did that to a customers insert and then it had to be pulled and taken in for a recall or warranty work? How would the manufacturer view those modifications?

From what I've seen and researched not having appliance adaptors that simply insert male end into the flue and can be screwed through the flue collar is a shortcoming of the duraliner system. Mind you. If there is room for either a elbow or some form of round to round piece and then the round to oval flex adaptor can be used obviously it can be done with a clean flue collar attachment. I just don't see that working in my particular scenario.

Trimming the gray casing so the liner can reach the outlet will not affect the performance or warranty in any way. I would not make any holes with screws into the top of the stove. You want to fasten the liner &/or adapter by screwing through the sides of the stove outlet.

 

[Squisher]

The size of the oval rigid and flex pipe is 4 3/4" x 7 3/4" so I believe that will fit down my 6"x13" flue.

So far duravent has got back to me and supplied me with what looks like cad drawings for the round to oval appliance adapter. All I can say is it doesn't look to me like I can attach it to the flue collar even if I cut the sheetmetal surround on the insert. It looks like it fits over the flue collar as a rectangular box. I would've preferred some photos of the actual product but I'll be in contact with them again. I won't post any photos of their plan drawings unless they give me permission to. I am going to direct their tech support to this thread.

I would like to use this system but I really am unsure of this appliance adapter.

 

[Hogwildz]

If that is the insulated rigid, that will work sweet for you. I still say skip the adapter, and install the flex direct to the outlet.

 

[Squisher]

Well that way I don't have to buy and figure out how to mount cleanly the adapter but instead I have to buy the flex oval to round adapter and my 3' piece of flex gets pushed up into the clay liners.

As for the adapter I've studied the drawing of the plans enough to see that it's not the route I'm going to go. It fits over the round 6" flue as a rectangular box. It only has 1" of rise and my flue collar sticks up 1 1/2"s. Also I can't see how there isn't the possibility of soot/creosote building up in that rectangular box without being able to ever be cleaned, even if it could sit down flush which seems like it would be nescessary to seal and screw it. Also it seems like it would not be a smooth transition for flow. All of the things my supplier voiced concerns over.

 

[Squisher]

For me if I'm going to pay for a premium insulated liner I want the benefit of being able to install it to ZC and I want to be able to install it cleanly.

I'm going to talk to my supplier Monday about dimensions of ovalized flex liners and see if I can get one that will fit with insulation.

 

[Hogwildz]

Have you considered the oval to 6" round flex ?

 

[Squisher]

Yes the 14" long 6" oval to round adapter will push my uninsulated 3' flex up into the clay tiles nullifying the ZC. So before I'd go that route I'll explore if it's possible to fit a insulated ovalized flex top to bottom. I don't like the idea of buying a premium insulated liner system(the duraliner) just to not meet ZC. If I can use a wrapped ovalized flex liner I can insulate it right to almost the appliance and it'll probably be cheaper. This is install is not for my main wood heater and will never be used as the main heater. My basement freestanding summit will always do the brunt of the heating.

I don't know if I can get a ovalized insulated flex liner that will fit. So I have to look into it

 

[Hogwildz]

I'm not referring to an oval to round adapter, I'm talking about an oval to round 3' flex, and mount the round part of the flex direct to the stove outlet, and the oval end direct to the oval rigid. Solves your flex height & adapter problem at the same time.

https://www.northlineexpress.com/6-...x-chimney-relining-pipe-6dlr-36orhf-6579.html

BTW, your concern in the tile area is nil, the concern should be from smoke shelf to tile. Is this a true ZC fireplace? Is it a true clay tile liner in existing? What is the fireplace made of, and is there combustible materials behind/around the ZC if it is a true ZC?

 

[Squisher]

It's not a ZC fireplace. It's a masonry fireplace that I would like to put a ZC liner into to hook up to the insert. From duraliners own literature the area from the last clay liner to the appliance doesn't need to be insulated but any flex that enters the clay liners does need to be. They are very clear in their literature about this. Insulated flex or rigid through the clay liners and uninsulated through the smoke chamber/damper meets ZC.

Also the round to flex 3' section will not fit down the chimney and I would not be able to fit it up through the damper and the smoke chamber and then attach it to the rigid inside the smoke chamber.

Any ZC reference has been made to the liner system. Never in reference to it being a existing factory built fireplace(ZC fireplace). It is an interior masonry fireplace and I doubt highly that it has 2" of clearance to combustibles all the way around it. It could have but it'd be to invasive/difficult to inspect fully to confirm this I think? The clay liners are in fine shape but I would like to sort this out to have a ZC liner so that I know this install is to code and as safe as it can be. I want to insulate for both safety and performance and agree it would be better to have the liner insulated right to nearly the appliance.

I am a new sweep who only cleans at this point , I'm about 100 flues in so far. So I've seen a ton of questionable systems already. Part of me belabouring this is so I learn and am building familiarity with the different types of liner systems and how they are installed. One day I will do installs commercially but even until then just learning as much as I can about the different lining systems will help me to better serve my customers by knowing more completely what I'm looking at. As a sweep, I don't use the words safe or unsafe, it's either to code or it isn't.

 

[begreen]

The catalog picture is upside down but this seems to be the solution offered by DuraVent. I haven't installed this, but reading the directions it would seem like this is the piece needed. To maintain ZC, if any of the flex extends above the smoke shelf that gets wrapped with their 2 ply insulation.

 

[Squisher]

I can't fit a round section down my 6x13" interior size clay liners. So any round section needs to be attached from below, it can not be sent down from above. I see no way of attaching that piece to the rigid oval that would be protruding into the smoke chamber?

Also in duraliners install instructions there is no recommendation/allowance for a section of their round pipe to attach directly to the appliance. It needs to attach to one of their appliance adapters or a converting rigid elbow. So while I'm not sayin the round end of that pipe couldn't positively hook up to the flue collar it is not how the manufacturer(duraliner) recommends it's done.

 

[begreen]

Exactly, is there a reason you can't drop the oval liner down, then from the fireplace join the oval to round section? Their catalog says to use the round end to connect to the stove.

 

[Squisher]

I feel like we're moving in circles a bit on this. I've looked pretty long and hard now at all of duraliners literature. I'm not trying to sound ungrateful for all of the advice and help. I really appreciate the ideas.

But this is how I see duraliners approves set-up being for my scenario:

Their approved method for my scenario would be from top to bottom. Rigid insulated oval pipe down past the last clay liner then a 3' piece of oval to oval flex (which would've been the first piece sent down, only oval pipe is fitting down this chimney) and then attached to the oval to round flat appliance adapter. I don't like the looks of that appliance adapter whatsoever myself. And don't feel that appliance adapter is going to be a clean connection to the insert. It would be approved and meet code. But I'm not happy with it, espescially after viewing their cad drawings of the actual piece. It is how I described in an earlier post. A rectangular box that fits over the round flue collar and gets screwed/sealed to the stove, then the exit is oval.

 

[Squisher]

Exactly, is there a reason you can't drop the oval liner down, then from the fireplace join the oval to round section? Their catalog says to use the round end to connect to the stove.

Well I don't see how I could attach the round to oval 3' flex from the bottom? I'd have to do it in the smoke chamber somehow? So I'd have to use a rivet gun up in the smoke chamber. Also the flex sections don't come predrilled for the rivet holes. They are meant to be placed into position and drilled and then riveted. So also trying to reach up into the smoke chamber to drill too?

Lastly if you read their installation instructions carefully when they say to attach the round end to the stove. They mean the stove with the appliance adapter already attached. Even if it's just a round to round appliance adapter. The male end of their pipe section is not intended to be directly attached to the flue collar.

 

[begreen]

Yes, that is correct. Do the drilling outside, before the piping is installed. Then only riveting is required. The round end of the flex should mate with the flue collar according to Hogwildz. I'll have to take his word for it but it looks so.

 

[Squisher]

There is no way to reach up through the damper and into the smoke chamber and have the reach or room to run a rivet gun I presume from all sides. Even my 6'6" friend the octopus wouldn't be able to do it. If you could somehow reach up in there somehow, there would be no room on the backside to fit a rivet/gun. Certainly it could be fitted/pre-drilled as you described before the rigid was sent down.

I have no doubt from Hogwildz description and pictures that the male round end can be hooked up and I suspect much cleaner than the adaptor plates they intend to be used.

This is why I looked into using the 14" oval to round adapter flex piece to attach to the 3' oval to oval flex but when I talked that over with my supplier he advised that it was not meant to be attached directly to the appliance flue collar without some form of adapter. And that added length of 14" even if I skipped an adaptor would push the 3' oval to oval flex up into the first clay liner.

 

[Squisher]

what they typicall sell for the appliance connection my supplier said is a 15 30 or 45 stainless elbow that is normal crimped male on the appliance end and round duraliner female on the other end. So his recommendation in my case would be one of the low angle adapters(presumably 15 as I really only need flat I think) and then the 14" round to oval flex piece and a insulation kit to cover the flex where it extends up into the clay liners(and if you were then might as well insulat the whole flex as it comes in a 5' length. But I don't believe that the flex section with a insulated wrap will fit down the chimney or if I installed it from below somehow which still to me seems almost impossible, I don't think I'd be able to then push it back up into the clay liners with the insulation on. I'd guess it'd either be just to tight and not fit, or just get caught on the edge of the clay liner and mess up the insulation anyways.

 

[Squisher]

I'm compiling an e-mail back to M andG for Monday. I will try to provide them a link to this thread and hopefully, if nothing else I can get their opinion on hooking up the round male end of their duraliner directly to a appliance.

I've read enough about this duraliner system that I do really like it, I just don't know if it's going to work in this application. I'm still very open to working it out. But for the dollars involved in a high end liner system like this I want it to meet ZC for the liner install. And I don't want to have to modify components or use them in a way that isn't approved by the manufacturer.

 

[begreen]

Is it possible to remove the damper or to cut out an access notch?

 

[Squisher]

Well. Anything is possible. But I'm not going to that extent if there's other possibilities. Like ovalizing a flex liner enough that it could fit down the whole length with a 1/2" insulation wrap. I've read of people getting down to 4-4.5"s on the skinny side by ovalizing a 6" flex liner. If that's possible(still researching it). Then it seems like that's the route to go, then I just need a transitioning anchor plate on top to extend the chimney with 3' of class A.

 

[begreen]

That is definitely an alternative option worth investigating.