EPA JUST A SNIFF AWAY IN ALASKA...NYT ARTICLE

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When the full and true life cycle of ANY product, be it energy or some other consumable, is taken into account it can often dramatically change the view of that product. The hard part for some things (including fossil fuels) is following it from birth to death. Taking simple measurements at the final stage (death) is only telling part of the story.

Eating that heathy piece of fruit from Brazil? Yeah, think about that one for a moment, from harvest, to transport, to packaging to shipping across the ocean, from the port to sitting on a shelf in a well lit grocery store, to being carried out in a non recyclable plastic bag to be driven home in that Ford F-150. To being eaten, with the peel or pit tossed into the garbage can to be hauled to a waste site where it rots and produces methane. Life cycle - think about it sometime....it can be an eye opener.
 
How much particulate matter and air pollution does a forest fire produce? With global warming we will get more of those. Better to burn that wood inan EPA stove.
 
I was in Delhi India this time last year. By some measures the air is worse there than in Beijing. Shocking how toxic that air was. After 6 days I was choking with a massive case of acute bronchitis. Those photos in the Mother Jones article speak volumes. So glad the Clean Air Act has improved the quality of life for so many in this country.

I've been more than ready, for the past year or two, to replace the old Vigilant I've been running for supplemental heat. But there are complications that I'll describe in a new post.
 
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All it takes is 1 volcano to undo the epa regs for 500 years.
 
Yes, the thread has started to wander off topic. For volcanic influence, the particulate effect is a matter of a few years as opposed to the seasonal emissions of woodstoves. Wood burning effects also are regional usually. The SO2 effects of a volcano however are a whole nuther topic.
 
Yes, the thread has started to wander off topic. For volcanic influence, the particulate effect is a matter of a few years as opposed to the seasonal emissions of woodstoves. Wood burning effects also are regional usually. The SO2 effects of a volcano however are a whole nuther topic.
Great to combat global warming!
 
I think than without educating people on good burning practice, replacing older stoves won't solve all the problems.
True, but, You can lead a horse to water, but,,,,yadayadayada.
 
I didn't see anywhere in the article that mentions a difference between EPA stoves and the ols dragons. The article just talked about wood stoves as a whole. Right?
Yeah Olson mention about the guy he saw while in the cab as "having an old stove right there", but other than that little tidbit, nothing more on EPA stove as being better (or a solution for Alaskans).:confused:
 
Certainly EPA stoves are not a panacea.

Mine is a non-catalytic EPA stove that's supposed to be super-low in particulate emission. But the secondary burn that consumes the particulates kicks in only when the fire burns hot. Most of the time I don't need to run it that hot; it would waste the fuel that I break my back cutting, splitting and stacking, and I would probably have to crack a window to keep it comfortable inside, so I run the air between about 30-50% depending on what I'm burning, producing a comfortable temperature inside without guzzling wood. Fortunately, I live on some acreage in the country with plenty of open space and no neighbours 50 ft away; the smell of smoke right outside my house is sometimes strong enough that I would not want to be the person living in a house next door to me less than a few hundred ft away.

This doesn't affect me personally, since the only time I ever smell smoke inside the house is when I open the stove door to re-load neglecting to make sure I have a good draught going, or else I cut the air down too low too soon after a re-load and the thing back-puffs. But I don't think the air in a congested village where everyone on the street had a house and wood-burning system just like mine would be any better than I hear Beijing is on a smoggy day, although I like the smell of wood smoke a lot better than I like the smell of diesel, kerosene or coal.

As far as the carbon footprint, many people can't understand that wood is not an offender. Every tree that ever grew eventually dies and gives off CO2. Whether a tree decomposes over time by rotting, or rapidly from burning, the net carbon emission is the same, part of the natural renewal cycle. OTOH, fossil fuels release carbon that had been encapsulated in the ground for aeons back into the air, increasing the level of CO2 in the atmosphere, taking us back, artificially, to a time when the planet was warmer and the CO2 level in the atmosphere was naturally higher than it is now.
 
Mine is a non-catalytic EPA stove that's supposed to be super-low in particulate emission. But the secondary burn that consumes the particulates kicks in only when the fire burns hot. Most of the time I don't need to run it that hot; it would waste the fuel that I break my back cutting, splitting and stacking, and I would probably have to crack a window to keep it comfortable inside, so I run the air between about 30-50% depending on what I'm burning, producing a comfortable temperature inside without guzzling wood. Fortunately, I live on some acreage in the country with plenty of open space and no neighbours 50 ft away; the smell of smoke right outside my house is sometimes strong enough that I would not want to be the person living in a house next door to me less than a few hundred ft away.

That is why I never recommend harmans. They do work well once people figure them out but they are hard to make work correctly and they really do need to be run hard.

As far as the carbon footprint, many people can't understand that wood is not an offender. Every tree that ever grew eventually dies and gives off CO2. Whether a tree decomposes over time by rotting, or rapidly from burning, the net carbon emission is the same, part of the natural renewal cycle. OTOH, fossil fuels release carbon that had been encapsulated in the ground for aeons back into the air, increasing the level of CO2 in the atmosphere, taking us back, artificially, to a time when the planet was warmer and the CO2 level in the atmosphere was naturally higher than it is now.

Wood burning is not carbon neutral. It is much better than most but not neutral. Yes if that wood was left to decompose with no organisms affecting it at all then you are right all of the carbon would be released into the environment. But that is not how it works.
 
The EPA is off it's rocker alot of the time. Yeah, I don't want to turn into China where you can't breathe, some regulation is a good thing. But everything in moderation. Like Jags was saying, if you take into account everything, alot of regulations are ineffective at best, and detrimental at worst.Can anyone say, diesel engine emissions. FOrce OEM's to go from 0 to extreme restrictive in a few years time, at the cost of killing the diesel market, complicating diesel systems and destroying mileage. The latter of which makes the regulation, wholly ineffective. When your mileage goes from 20 to 14 for the same engine with emissions controls, how much spewing of emissions is required for those fuel trucks to haul fuel around to get it to you. More than your saving by mandating it in the first place.
There's no good answers when it comes to wood stoves. Offsetting the cost of the stove partially is just the beginning. ALot of them require very expensive changes to install, be inspected, get approved by insurance companies depending on where you live. There's near 0 incentive for someone to swap their stove that has been serving them dutifully for decades. Some might take that as well, fine them, outlaw them, that's the absolute wrong way to go about it, unless you want a coup on your hands. How do you think Trump ended up in office. People are sick and tired of having fees, fines, regulations and everything else, shoved down their throats. Slow, slow change is the only way to regulate this stuff. Very slow...when it comes to wood stoves. 1/2 century is a good time limit to set in this case. Basically, you educate people about the new systems, and leave all the old systems to just burn themselves out, they will, it might take 50 years, but they will.
 
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The unpleasant truth is burning wood does produce a lot of those harmful 2.5 um particles. For kicks (yeah my idea of kicks is strange) I dug up some numbers on different heat sources and their output of 2.5 particles. It's not that straight forward since most stove numbers are reported in some weight per time (e.g g/hr) while other sources like oil and NG are given in weight per energy released like mg/MJ. I checked the numbers on EPA stoves w/ some assumptions, namely a 30 lb load of wood and a 6 hr burn cycle which gives 3.96 g/hr. This meets EPA stage 2 I believe so I don't think they're way off. So...

NG 0.014 mg/MJ
Oil 1.7 mg/MJ
Pellet 25 mg/MJ
EPA Stove 450 mg/MJ
Convent Stove 1680 mg/MJ
Fireplace 8600 mg/MJ

Real quick it's apparent that a conventional wood stove under test conditions puts out as much 2.5 as almost 1000 oil fired boilers per MJ of energy. Even our EPA stoves put out as much particles as >250 oil fired furnaces.

Unlike wood burning, NG and oil fired furnaces probably put out pretty near their stated emissions no matter who the operator is,. Not so with wood as we know.

This is the reason that wood burning can only be part of the solution to any areas heating needs and why one knucklehead burning badly likely can exceed the stated numbers and consequently can do a lot to damage air quality in areas prone to air quality problems.

These were the numbers I was able to come up with. Anyone who can fact check/debunk these please do. I'm all about accurate info here but I think any way you slice it air quality is affected by wood burning and the EPA is not off base to monitor and make recommendations. Thankfully I don't live in an area that is subject to significant inversions or has a high density of other burners.

So I was doing some reading in the 2016 EPA approved woodstove list and they have the pellet stoves in there too. Pellet stoves make the same particulate emissions as woodstoves, at least my two stoves, and have the same or worse efficiencies so why do you think that they only emit 25 mg/MJ vs. 1680 for a stove?
 
Slow, slow change is the only way to regulate this stuff. Very slow...when it comes to wood stoves. 1/2 century is a good time limit to set in this case. Basically, you educate the new, and leave all the old systems to just burn themselves out, they will, it might take 50 years, but they will.
And that is exactly how it is being done in almost every case but 50 years is pretty optimistic for the life of a stove.
 
So I was doing some reading in the 2016 EPA approved woodstove list and they have the pellet stoves in there too. Pellet stoves make the same particulate emissions as woodstoves, at least my two stoves, and have the same or worse efficiencies so why do you think that they only emit 25 mg/MJ vs. 1680 for a stove?

Not really sure what you're saying but, big but, the numbers I found were values the authors selected and were from several years ago. That's why I tried to translate their stated number for an EPA stove back to g/hr to see if it made any sense at all. What any particular stove is capable of would vary. (and the 1680 was for an old conventional style woodstove). The EPA test results are just that, results from a specific test condition and not necessarily what the unit does in the real world, certainly would not be constant through the burn cycle.

I don't know how efficiency is being measured for a pellet or woodstove. I do know with oil burners the 86% or whatever they quote does not mean 86% of the available energy ends up in the house or water. It's a measure of the completeness of the burn I believe.

With a controlled system pellet stoves should be capable of providing an optimum fuel/air ratio (right at startup) so for a given amount of energy released they ought to be able to emit fewer particles than a system that has minimal control of air by comparison.
 
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Not really sure what you're saying but, big but, the numbers I found were values the authors selected and were from several years ago. That's why I tried to translate their stated number for an EPA stove back to g/hr to see if it made any sense at all. What any particular stove is capable of would vary. (and the 1680 was for an old conventional style woodstove). The EPA test results are just that, results from a specific test condition and not necessarily what the unit does in the real world, certainly would not be constant through the burn cycle. So mixing the EPA test method data with data that may have been gathered in a more realistic setting may be impossible.

I don't know how efficiency is being measured for a pellet or woodstove. I do know with oil burners the 86% or whatever they quote does not mean 86% of the available energy ends up in the house or water. It's a measure of the completeness of the burn I believe.

With a controlled system pellet stoves should be capable of providing an optimum fuel/air ratio (right at startup) so for a given amount of energy released they ought to be able to emit fewer particles than a system that has minimal control of air by comparison.

What stuck with me about the post you wrote earlier was that pellet stoves were super low emissions burners (25) compared to the broad woodstove category at 1680. It's just not so. The best pellet stoves are just as dirty and just as efficient as the best woodstoves. I know that it probably wasn't the intent of your post to compare pellets to wood in that way but it makes we question the rest of your numbers. Turns out that the ability to optimize air/fuel ratios, and control combustion with forced air, do not make the pellet stove any cleaner according to EPA testing.
 
. Turns out that the ability to optimize air/fuel ratios, and control combustion with forced air, do not make the pellet stove any cleaner according to EPA testing.
Yes you are absolutely correct when it comes to the testing but the difference is in the real world pellet stoves operate much closer to those test results than wood stoves do. There are just many fewer variables and much less room for human error with pellet stoves.
 
What stuck with me about the post you wrote earlier was that pellet stoves were super low emissions burners (25) compared to the broad woodstove category at 1680. It's just not so. The best pellet stoves are just as dirty and just as efficient as the best woodstoves. I know that it probably wasn't the intent of your post to compare pellets to wood in that way but it makes we question the rest of your numbers. Turns out that the ability to optimize air/fuel ratios, and control combustion with forced air, do not make the pellet stove any cleaner according to EPA testing.

One thing I'm not understanding is the comparison of a pellet stove to an old conventional woodstove. I kind of understand if you were saying an EPA stove stove and pellet are similar in terms of particulate emission.

But even then, if you're taking current EPA data for emission of particulates for a pellet stove and EPA woodburner in g/hr and then comparing it to the data I put in the earlier post which is in mg/MJ I'm not sure if you can do that. An EPA stove under test conditions (e.g. to temp with standardized chimney etc) may put out the same 2.5PM in g/hr as a pellet stove for an hour or two but in the real world the stove has a cycle so if you capture particulate data over the cycle I can see the pellet stove winning out.

As I said earlier it was estimated that as much 50% or more of EPA stove emissions occurred during the kindling stage. So an EPA certified stove has a certain capability under test conditions but that's not to say it's always achieving that where as a pellet stove ought to be pretty constant which may explain the difference.

Not sure if any of this helps to explain the data I found. To me though a pellet stove is more like a carburetor for wood so I don't find it hard to at all to believe that a pellet stove gets more energy out of a 100g of fuel than does an EPA stove, than does a old steel box, than does an open fireplace.
 
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Wood burning is not carbon neutral. It is much better than most but not neutral. Yes if that wood was left to decompose with no organisms affecting it at all then you are right all of the carbon would be released into the environment. But that is not how it works.

But aren't the organisms affecting the dead wood carbon based as well, and release CO2 when they eventually die and decompose? If decomposing wood isn't carbon neutral, where is the extra carbon coming from? Or when burning wood, where does any emitted carbon come from that wasn't originally in the tree, extracted from CO2 in the air and maybe from nutrients in the soil that originally got their carbon from CO2 in the air?
 
The conversation is starting to drift from harmful emmisions to CO. Yes rotting wood creates CO as does burning wood as does forest fires as does a lot of things. Rotting wood does not create a layer of smoke and particulates that get trapped under an inversion and people have to breathe. Forest fires create the same emmisions as a wood stove. But, by and large they occur when the air has a better chance of dissipating it. What is concerning the folks in AK and many communities is what is causing the poor air quality at the time it's a problem (winter). The lack of logging, forest fires, or decaying trees is not the present problem they are trying to solve. How do they reduce the particulates trapped under an inversion?
 
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Despite the politics and the best intentions, man-made global warming is simply false. The sun is the heater of our solar system and all the variables that go into it - orbit, solar activity, weather patterns, and countless other things we understand and don't understand create what we know as the climate cycle. However, the sun is the engine of our climate - always has been and always will be. In fact, the sun is so powerful at dictating the temperature of the Earth that our planet would not support life as we know it if our orbit around the sun was a little closer or a little farther away from the big red ball.

Our planet is incredibly adaptable and the concept of homeostasis (a balance) that we see throughout nature takes place on a macro scale as one system acts to counterbalance another system. If this did not exist we would not be here because our Earth has survived some major events far beyond our imaginations. How is climate measured by the earth? Is it in centuries, millennia, or eons? We don't really know. However, from a geological standpoint - we are irrelevant to the Earth, our solar system, and the universe. The crap (yes, it is crap) we see on the news about warmest year ever, warmest decade on record, etc etc is ridiculous. We measure time in generations. Those are statistically irrelevant to the age of the Earth (either by creation or primordial soup) and a speck of dust to the universe.

If you look at the money we are spending to combat a non-existent issue (I can't call it a problem because a rise of the mean Earth temperature by a few degrees would be beneficial to mankind, animals, and plant life) it is sickening. This has become a political pinata that fearmongers can hit with a stick to get candy and gain control over us. Almost every answer they propose to the issue involves taxes, crony-capitalism or programs that benefit them and their friends, and a nanny state where human activity can be controlled. I would be glad to debate the issue from a simple science standpoint and while none of us (certainly myself) knows exactly what will happen in our lifetimes the science of the sun indicates a period of slight cooling in the immediate future. This is why even the diehards have changed the terminology to "climate change" instead of global warming. It is not getting warmer and it has definitely been warmer in human history than it is presently.

To help them accomplish their political goals, they have declared one of the most vital gases on our plant (CO2) as a pollutant. Without it we would all die. Simple. It does not harm us and it benefits plants, which in turn, benefits us. Furthermore, if you objectively study the unproven model of greenhouse gases and their effect on micro-climate (none of us will see a macro-climate during our lifetime) you will find that CO2 is not a cause - it is an effect. It is a minimal effect to their own model so why did they target it? Easy answer, it is the easiest to regulate and tax. They also completely ignore the "natural" sources of CO2 that dwarf the activities of man.

As someone who studied (and loves) science the whole charade frustrates me greatly. In my lifespan (again irrelevant to "climate") I have seen hysteria about a coming ice age, heard about peak oil (energy), the population bomb, peak food, and most of all - global warming. None of these have come true and you can go read the predictions yourself - they are all over the web. If we trust the hypothesis what happened to their predictions? They did not happen. Period. None of them have come true. We find more oil all the time because carbon and hydrogen plus heat in the crust of the Earth creates oil and gas. We find ways to more efficiently create energy and food and the standard of living of the global population statistically increases.

With that said, we should take care of our air, water, and in general (like all things in life) leave a better place for our children and grandchildren. There is a place for the EPA and a place for laws and regulations to influence human activity in so far as it impacts the environment. However, I will endlessly debate that we could do far more good with the money we spend (seen and unseen) on this problem by making the world a better place (simple things like clean water and basic sanitation would greatly improve life in the third world) and in turn, that would likely increase the wealth and health of those people who in turn, like us, would eventually have more wealth to spend keeping the world clean. That is a proven cycle in human history. Wealth is the best thing for the environment. Poverty is the worst.

The EPA has gotten carried away and there needs to be a cost-benefit calculation to their actions that everyone can see and understand. I think many of us would be shocked at what some "environmental protections" have costs us in real terms versus what the benefit has been to a region, the nation, and the planet. On top of that, look at some of the "green" solutions they promote! Ethanol gasoline inefficiently using food as fuel that harms motors, mercury filled lightbulbs that will make landfills (using their own numbers for acceptable mercury) superfund cleanup sites, attacking the timber industry fueling massive wildfires and causing regional economic depression/poverty, ineffective wind turbines that kill birds, bats, and bees, etc etc. The list is long and shameful so one has to ask the simple question - who benefited from such decisions and programs?

In so far as "wood burning" is concerned it does not impact the macro-climate in any measurable way. However, it can definitely impact your neighbors and communities (micro-climates) if everyone is choking on woodsmoke (due to inversions and stagnant air). I would argue that such an issue should be addressed at the local level. EPA has already taken the biggest corrective action by setting basic standards for wood burning devices, but they won't stop there if history shows us anything - they will continue to regulate and tighten controls until there are no more woodstoves. I have even heard proposals in some environmental fanatic circles that they would like to put "measuring devices" on our stacks so they can "tax" us for our output (since they already heavily tax power). That is where an agency without adequate oversight ends up.......... the nanny state.
 
But aren't the organisms affecting the dead wood carbon based as well, and release CO2 when they eventually die and decompose? If decomposing wood isn't carbon neutral, where is the extra carbon coming from? Or when burning wood, where does any emitted carbon come from that wasn't originally in the tree, extracted from CO2 in the air and maybe from nutrients in the soil that originally got their carbon from CO2 in the air?
Yes but then does all of the carbon from those organisms get released into the atmosphere? No the same as the tree some gets released into the ground some gets eaten by other organisms and yes some goes into the atmosphere. Like i said before wood is much better as far as carbon goes than fossil fuels but it is still not neutral.
 
volunbear while I like the fact that you admit we need to protect our air and water. There are so many inaccuracies in your post I don't know where to start.
 
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